More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

Well the mistaken comments about Victorian and Edwardian buildings still standing because of the quality of the build needs some correction.
For private housing the owners will have spent substantial amounts of money on maintaining the structure. They will have installed damp courses, had new roofs, repaired chimneys. The basic structure may be strong but it would not be standing if it hadn't been cared for.
Public buildings have quite often been pulled down because the cost of repairing them was too great. Others have cost a substantial amount to maintain and some grants have made this possible.

The basic problem with these schools is that successive governments have chosen to ignore the problems. This government was warned
In 2019, the Standing Committee on Structural Safety highlighted the significant risk of failure of RAAC planks.

Three years later in 2022, the Office of Government Property sent a safety briefing notice to all property leaders, saying that "RAAC is now life-expired and liable to collapse"

So why was this ignored?
Action is only happening now because there has been a sudden collapse and the cost might now include injury or even death.

Basically it's as if someone in an older private property had simply looked at subsidence cracks, or rising damp and pretended it wasn't happening, because they didn't want to spend the money, and then wondered why their house was falling down.

Our local school no longer has a caretaker, another false economy.

Interesting to remember that in 2010 Michael Gove scrapped the school building programme and £1bn was cut from school's budget.
Reasons for the present farce go back a long time.

Well the mistaken comments about Victorian and Edwardian buildings still standing because of the quality of the build needs some correction

I don't think we are mistaken.

The Edwardian (1907) primary school my DC attended is still standing, still being used as a primary school.

The old School here was built in 1878, no longer a school as the number of pupils outgrew its premises, has continued to be used for various activities up to the present day.

The senior school here, completed in the 1980s, is due to be replaced asap.

Callistemon21

^Well the mistaken comments about Victorian and Edwardian buildings still standing because of the quality of the build needs some correction^

I don't think we are mistaken.

The Edwardian (1907) primary school my DC attended is still standing, still being used as a primary school.

The old School here was built in 1878, no longer a school as the number of pupils outgrew its premises, has continued to be used for various activities up to the present day.

The senior school here, completed in the 1980s, is due to be replaced asap.

And how does one Victorian school, one Edwardian school and One 1980s school show anything?

No doubt some Victorian schools were well built, but money will have been spent on their upkeep. Equally some Victorian schools were not well built and they proved uneconomical to repair and have gone. But no building standing has survived without proper maintenance.
The same for the old school.
The requirements for senior schools tend to be more changeable than primary ones. But the same principles apply
.
Some building survive, some don't.
All need maintenance.
I've taught in buildings of all ages and state of repair. Newer ones did tend to have more problems, but older ones frequently had more complex and expensive issues.

The issue, as when Blair came to power. is one of neglect. It's how the Tories have always worked. Little expenditure in the short term, leave someone else to clear it up then accuse them of wasting public money.

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

growstuff

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

OMG growstuff you've just taken me back to when I returned to teaching after having my children and so many schools had buckets standing around when it rained. So little seems to have changed.

Disgraceful lack of preparation by Keegan and DfE. Known about for years. Why no list of schools? What are the Tories doing about aerated concrete in hospitals, police stations and other public buildings? They might have done nothing on schools if the beam mentioned by Gibb hadn't collapsed unexpectedly in the summer.

Luckygirl3

I heard a news report that said this problem has been known about since the 1990s and the material was always known to have a limited lifespan. A bit shortsighted really.
I am glad that is being sorted now. It seems crazy that schools are bombarded with Safeguarding rules but have been operating in buildings in danger of imminent collapse. There has been so much time to sort this.

Indeed Luckygirl. Apparently succesive governments going back to Sir John Major in the 1990s (so both stripes) have been warned of the risks of RAAC, which is meant to have a lifespan of 30 years but has long exceeded that in many public buildings.

However there was little action until five years ago, when the risks became more pressing as the flat roof collapsed at Singlewell Primary in Gravesend, Kent. Just 24 hours after signs of structural stress were spotted, the roof came crashing down. Fortunately, it occurred at a weekend but the move prompted Kent council to warn other authorities over the danger.

I think this current problem is due to buildings put up between the 1950's and 1995.

It covers a lot of governments, but this latest problem has been known about since 2018.

Plenty of time for it to be sorted out.

And how does one Victorian school, one Edwardian school and One 1980s school show anything?
😂

As you must surely realise, I gave those as examples of the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings compared to the flimsiness of more modern structures.

Obviously, if you wish to believe the three schools I mentioned are the only ones then that is up to you.

I thought it was more than one school which was having construction problems.

Meanwhile, children's education is being disrupted yet again after all the problems of Covid lockdowns.

www.buildingconservation.com/articles/savingschools/savingschools.htm
2007

There is no excuse.

growstuff

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

That is due to lack of maintenance and improvements.

Would it have been cheaper to maintain and improve such schools properly rather than build new ones which now need replacing yet again?

And there is concern about Council houses built using Aero bar- like concrete. Is there a professional survey being conducted?

Perhaps a building survey should be included in the Ofsted .

I'm just sooo glad I'm not still a teacher. Most teachers I know spend the first couple of weeks of the school holidays redoing classroom displays, preparing lessons, getting class lists in order, etc. I think I'd cry (and more), if I had to adapt to online teaching at the last minute or change activities to adapt to teaching in a corridor.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work.

Callistemon21

growstuff

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

That is due to lack of maintenance and improvements.

Would it have been cheaper to maintain and improve such schools properly rather than build new ones which now need replacing yet again?

I don't know how a new school would have cost, but the old building wasn't really fit for purpose anyway.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work

Online teaching might have worked during lockdowns wen parents could hae been working from home but now most are back in the workplace how would that work?

Apologies for spellings.

Callistemon21

^If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work^

Online teaching might have worked during lockdowns wen parents could hae been working from home but now most are back in the workplace how would that work?

It could work for older, more motivated pupils, but some would do nothing - just as happened during lockdown.

Callistemon21

^And how does one Victorian school, one Edwardian school and One 1980s school show anything?^
😂

As you must surely realise, I gave those as examples of the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings compared to the flimsiness of more modern structures.

Obviously, if you wish to believe the three schools I mentioned are the only ones then that is up to you.

I thought it was more than one school which was having construction problems.

Meanwhile, children's education is being disrupted yet again after all the problems of Covid lockdowns.

www.buildingconservation.com/articles/savingschools/savingschools.htm
2007

There is no excuse.

But it doesn't "show the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings "etc.
.
There were actually just as many builders who cut corners in the past as there are now.

And I haven't excused anything. The issues of maintenance are the same for all schools. Not providing the money to maintain them is short term thinking, linked to the political system in the UK which means the Tories can leave the problem to the next government.

There are beautiful early Victorian buildings near me, but they look better than they really are. They have needed substantial repairs including under pinning over the years.

And I posted the information about when this government knew earlier. They were gambling on things lasting a bit longer.

Karmalady these are,in the main post war built schools ,PFI is another minefield altogether !

From 2011 to 2021 1053 schools in Scotland were either rebuilt or extensively refurbished.All the High schools in our area are newbuilds as are a number of primary schools/elc's.ALL manifesto pledged and delivered

The prewar schools still in good structural condition have been refurbished...ALAS this being the West of Scotland we have complaints about these beautiful new schools because ...wait for it...Catholic and Protestant pupils have to enter through the same gates!They go their seperate ways once inside the campus but this communal gate thing really has some folk foaming at the mouth. Maybe they should look south to the current situation and think how lucky we are

paddyann54

Karmalady these are,in the main post war built schools ,PFI is another minefield altogether !

From 2011 to 2021 1053 schools in Scotland were either rebuilt or extensively refurbished.All the High schools in our area are newbuilds as are a number of primary schools/elc's.ALL manifesto pledged and delivered

The prewar schools still in good structural condition have been refurbished...ALAS this being the West of Scotland we have complaints about these beautiful new schools because ...wait for it...Catholic and Protestant pupils have to enter through the same gates!They go their seperate ways once inside the campus but this communal gate thing really has some folk foaming at the mouth. Maybe they should look south to the current situation and think how lucky we are

It’s all over the UK paddyann54. According to BBC News: Figures released to the Scottish Liberal Democrats in May suggested that a total of 37 Scottish schools had been found that used the concrete. They included nine in Dumfries and Galloway, seven in Aberdeen, six in Clackmannanshire and five in West Lothian.3

Most Victorian schools have a fascinating history and are still standing proud today. In some towns they were badly damaged by bombings, but rarely razed to the ground or destroyed. There's no real point in tearing them down just to build new, but they do need to be well maintained and brought up to standard. I watched one such school have a big makeover, old red brick met modern glass structures, dank smelly cellars replaced with modern lift shafts, so that inside the building you wouldn't know the difference. Of course it cost millions and needed ingenuity and vision to succeed, but it was turned round on time and not one pupil missed a day's schooling or was inconvenienced.

I heard on an HMI grapevine today that many secondary schools will go back to online teaching and learning, depending on the extent of repairs needed.
In very big schools it’s hugely complicated to arrange yeargroups with usual teachers so online gives better continuity.
I think Headteachers are in a shockingly difficult position and if in any doubt at all will look to safeguarding and move to online, perhaps for just certain groups.
I love the idea of a builder forming part of the inspection team assuming he was not just ticking boxes for the Local Authorities or government. Many teachers would have a long list ready for him .

Currently it isn't the job of a H & S compliance inspector to check whether the school building is falling down or not. However my understanding is that he is supposed to check that works have been carried out satisfactorily and that a maintenance schedule is in place.