More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

Joseann This is not a maintenance problem, This is an original building construction problem and schools have no control whatsoever over the construction methods used for their buildings.

If schools have buildings built of a material with a 30 year life and the 30 years are well past and the walls, floors and ceilings built of this material are decaying dangerously in the way designed into them from day 1, then there is really very little a maintenance manager can do to keep the buildings safe for occupation.

If you know how this can be done, you could make your fortune.

Just like two previous posters, I am now leaving the discussion because another poster seems to know so much more about the sector I work in, as well as in which a family member has spent years organising multi million pound building projects for schools as well as being responsible for their maintenance.
To be clear, I am not blaming the state schools at all but the system, and successive governments in charge. For example in this discussion , I blame the pittance paid for maintenance staff, £20k in state schools, when the private sector pays in access of £50k, and i blame the poor resources they have available to them. So of course, this has absolutely everything to do with private schools being more efficient at maintaining their buildings. I would also like to point out, that as usual, I was talking about primary schools, not secondary which I know little about, but if you can find me one primary which has a bursar with a team of accounts personnel, plus a premises manager who has his team of facilities staff, then we can compare.
I am fed up with having everything I say on private schools misconstrued for the benefit of an argument when I have far more knowledge about compliance and H & S in the independent than you could shake a stick at. Thank you to those who listen and even if you disagree have the courtesy to not be rude and condescending.
Oh, and I won't be bothering to report from the 🐎 mouth how any private schools affected are dealing with the issue this week.
Off to the ⛱️ now while colleagues I know prepare this term to have weeks of more than usually tough compliance inspecting in schools ahead of them.

MerylStreep

Happygirl79
My MP, James Duddridge sends his son to a local comprehensive. This summer the son has been volunteering with us at a local charity shop.

Is Kingsdown School in his constituency?

Happygirl79
My MP, James Duddridge sends his son to a local comprehensive. This summer the son has been volunteering with us at a local charity shop.

According to this morning's News, the Treasury said yesterday that there will no new money! (That's after Hunt's morning promises)

Joseann

Of course not, Glorianny, but in a discussion such as this about life and death situations, I wouldn't dream of pitting one group of children against another. Children are children, whoever they maybe, wherever they are educated, whatever, and their safety is paramount. Attack the politicians by all means, I'm in agreement with that, but implying that their children would be immune to upheaval and their schools automatically safe is unfair. They may very well be affected as I confirmed to Fleurpepper earlier.
But no, they wouldnt be sent home or crowded at short notice, because their schools have a team of maintenance staff on hand anyway. Oh, and they work all summer through the holidays.

Joseann Don't try to blame the schools! Every secondary school I know has a Business/Finance Manager, who is often a member of the senior management, and a team of maintenance staff, who work throughout the holidays.

You seem to be underestimating the scale of the work involved and responsibility for capital projects. Even a comprehensive survey for a secondary school is likely to cost at least six figures and the work itself will run into the millions. Schools just don't have that kind of money in their budgets, however good the Business Manager and site maintenance staff are. There is no way any of them could know what is lurking behind cladding without a proper survey. (My ex-husband was a qualified building surveyor, who spent most of his career knocking holes in walls and ceilings of public buildings.) They just don't have the money in their budgets for this kind of specialist and extensive work and it's not the responsibility of the school anyway to replace defective ceilings.

If schools have persistent problems or suspect something serious is going on, they make an application to the DfE for a grant. A retired civil servant is on record as claiming that many of these applications were ignored by ministers and it's a matter of public record that the amount paid in capital grants reduced by 50% from 2010. I personally know of two schools which were scheduled for rebuilds over the last ten years. Money had been spent on plans and applications for planning permission etc, but the plans were cancelled. (My local hospital is on the same situation, by the way.)

This has absolutely nothing to do with private schools being more efficient at maintaining their buildings.

Hunt has now said that the government will cover the costs, but it will come out of the existing education budget, which will mean something else will be squeezed. He's also said the costs of transport to alternative teaching spaces and catering will need to be met from the schools' budgets.

If only all that a school required was a large car park and computer hook ups. Things would be so much simpler

Apparently not one school in Merseyside is affected.

should be are not is.

Trurider1

Right, i am going to add to what I previously said. ONE Every Concrete Pour has tto be tested and recorded so back in 1985 WE knew exactly where this stuff was and the likely cost of replacing it in which cases wasn't really possible. The plan was to monitor as it wouldn't all fail at once and replace as necessary BUT several LABOUR and Conservative Government have le the plan slip so neither can blame the other. TWO, There are a mass of empty Office buildings around the Country mostly new and empty. They have large Car park and are cabled up for Computers. They can be rapidly converted into School Premises. They need proper fencing and romm dividers and that is it. JOB DONE.

The school where I taught is one of the worst affected. I know where it is situated and I know for a fact that there is no suitable empty office buildings for a thousand pupils plus staff for miles around.

Job not done!

HousePlantQueen

Just a quick reminder; Labour, undet Gordon Brown had set aside £53m to repair these schools, rebuild if necessary. Gove cancelled the programme. Maybe he should be questioned as to his reasons?

Austerity, HPQ!

Just a quick reminder; Labour, undet Gordon Brown had set aside £53m to repair these schools, rebuild if necessary. Gove cancelled the programme. Maybe he should be questioned as to his reasons?

I get that impression too. ‘WE’ cannot possibly have known ‘exactly where this stuff was’. All buildings throughout the country? I think not.

And empty office buildings?

You aren’t credible Trurider.

Trurider1

Right, i am going to add to what I previously said. ONE Every Concrete Pour has tto be tested and recorded so back in 1985 WE knew exactly where this stuff was and the likely cost of replacing it in which cases wasn't really possible. The plan was to monitor as it wouldn't all fail at once and replace as necessary BUT several LABOUR and Conservative Government have le the plan slip so neither can blame the other. TWO, There are a mass of empty Office buildings around the Country mostly new and empty. They have large Car park and are cabled up for Computers. They can be rapidly converted into School Premises. They need proper fencing and romm dividers and that is it. JOB DONE.

Trurider, I get the impression you’re actually not an informed poster, just expressing your opinion like everybody else?

Sorry, my DGC.

Right, i am going to add to what I previously said. ONE Every Concrete Pour has tto be tested and recorded so back in 1985 WE knew exactly where this stuff was and the likely cost of replacing it in which cases wasn't really possible. The plan was to monitor as it wouldn't all fail at once and replace as necessary BUT several LABOUR and Conservative Government have le the plan slip so neither can blame the other. TWO, There are a mass of empty Office buildings around the Country mostly new and empty. They have large Car park and are cabled up for Computers. They can be rapidly converted into School Premises. They need proper fencing and romm dividers and that is it. JOB DONE.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

There is evidence that the problems were first identified in a 1990 report. So possibly investigations were going on in the 1980s
In the 1990s structural deficiencies in RAAC began to become apparent. During this period, the Building Research Establishment (BRE) undertook a number of inspections of school roofs and in BRE Information Paper IP10/96 reported concerns regarding excessive deflection and cracking in RAAC roofing planks and corrosion to reinforcements. Following this, the widespread use of RAAC in the UK stopped amid concerns over its structural performance and life expectancy
beale-law.com/article/uk-government-launches-inquiry-into-reinforced-autoclaved-aerated-concrete-raac/

As for brides- this is seriously concerning. We drove so many ties over the Genoa bridge, including a few months before it collapsed after heavy rain. I imagine it triggered many questions about bridges built in UK and all over the world, at the same time.

Since then, we have driven over those very long bridges in Tuscany twice a year- and I have my heart in my mouth everytime!

JPB123

Trurider?…fire engines made from the stuff?😂😂😂
That I’ve got to see!

I do imagine s/he meant to write 'fire stations'.

Well, DH asked if I remembered what was termed "concrete cancer" today.

Indeed. Why don’t I believe it?

Trurider?…fire engines made from the stuff?😂😂😂
That I’ve got to see!

Come on GSM, you don't expect this person to leave their contact details here!

Are you a structural engineer Trurider? Not all concrete used in buildings encloses steel reinforcement. Who is the ‘we’ that put out a cover story? Which companies went into liquidation to avoid claims? You are anonymous here. If you don’t reply I will consider your post to be a load of hogwash,