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We’re rejoining the Horizon programme….

(167 Posts)
MayBee70 Wed 06-Sept-23 18:52:13

Just that really. Sounds as though it’s going to be announced soon. One of the many things we lost because of Brexit. I didn’t really know much about it till it was mentioned in the TRIP’s Leading interview with Paul Nurse.

Doodledog Fri 08-Sept-23 15:13:24

furzeacre579

i do wish there was a window beside each comment that we could click up or down as we agreed / didnt agree

I know what you mean, but it would wreck the chances of any debate. Also, there would be lurkers who offer nothing anyway posting '😂' emojis just to passive aggressively ridicule the posts of those who'd bothered to give an opinion. That happens on FB all the time on 'open' conversations, and I have no doubt that it would happen here too.

I will never forget someone posting to say that they were a lurker but regularly reported posts they thought were 'not in the spirit of GN'! I have little patience with freeloaders at the best of times, but that took the biscuit. It is exactly the sort of thing that would happen if we had that facility on here, but worse, people would take it to heart.

furzeacre579 Fri 08-Sept-23 14:59:11

i do wish there was a window beside each comment that we could click up or down as we agreed / didnt agree

CoolCoco Fri 08-Sept-23 14:58:47

The hit to musicians and artists needs addressing too - the EU did offer some sort of deal on their ability to tour EU countries but the good offices of the Johnson government didn’t want to be beholden to anything European - that was a good example of spite and cutting of the nose.

CoolCoco Fri 08-Sept-23 14:55:48

Why shouldn’t we follow all the rules? We participated in making them.

Fleurpepper Fri 08-Sept-23 14:32:38

We are not having a discussion about EU being good, or not. But about the benefits of the Horizon programme. And the fact that pick and choose will only happen if beneficial to the EU, and at a cost and limited access unless we follow all rules.

MaizieD Fri 08-Sept-23 14:29:34

I think the Telegraph is attempting to rewrite history. As are most of the Brexit supporting media.

The dwindling band of Brexiters are welcome to hang on to their fantasies, but I think that much of the population is unimpressed.

Urmstongran Fri 08-Sept-23 14:27:46

Ah, it’s always good to share dissenting POV on these threads though isn’t it Whitewave? It adds a certain counter balance to the populist narrative on here! “EU is good, Ra Ra Ra!”
😊

Whitewavemark2 Fri 08-Sept-23 14:11:49

ug well that is certainly one point of view😄, but I have read a very different one, and it pointed to the paltry amount Sunak gave to the Pioneer programme, which never got off the ground, and talking to my scientist daughter, I think her opinion would be very different.

Urmstongran Fri 08-Sept-23 14:05:25

Well, as a counter balance to all the EU enthusiasm on here, I quite liked this editorial from today’s Telegraph. I have C&P it as it’s behind a paywall.

“The UK is not a mere supplicant of the EU:

The saga of Britain’s involvement with the Horizon science and research programme is a case study in EU spite. When the UK voted for Brexit, British leaders made it clear that they were not seeking total isolation from Europe, particularly on issues of mutual advantage. If anything, the hope was that national independence could be the foundation for much friendlier ties. The ground could be cleared for an uncomplicated focus on co-operation in areas in which both sides stood to gain.

That was without reckoning with the petulance of Brussels and its determination to punish Britain, even at a cost to itself. If EU politicians had been behaving rationally, they would have jumped at the chance of continued UK involvement in Horizon, a pan-European programme that includes several non-EU countries. The bloc contains few universities of any note. It is a research laggard, particularly when compared with the likes of the United States.

This was, in other words, a clear example of an area in which the EU most likely needed the UK more than the UK needed the EU. But in an act of self-harm that brought politics into science, it effectively blocked the UK from taking part.

Now a deal has been reached between the Government and the European Commission that will let Britain associate with Horizon on a bespoke basis. But instead of putting the new agreement in its correct context – a recognition by the EU that it was in danger of becoming a research backwater – the likes of the BBC chose to report it almost as a major EU concession. This follows a pattern. Too often the UK is portrayed as a supplicant that faces penury unless it is allowed to pick scraps off the EU table. Convergence is almost always deemed to be self-evidently sensible.

The details of the Horizon deal of course need to be interrogated to see whether it represents value for money for British taxpayers. Some Brexiteers are frustrated that alternatives were not pursued instead. They fear, in part, that this will be just the start of a process that could result in the UK eventually rejoining the EU.

To address their concerns, the Government needs to be much clearer about what it is getting out of its “reset” of relations with the EU following the signing of the Windsor Framework. Warmer ties should not be an end in themselves. Action cannot be confused with progress, especially with a partner as unreliable as the EU.”

Grantanow Fri 08-Sept-23 13:33:30

Brexit is a complete disaster and we shall spend years unpicking it. Rejoining Horizon is a small but important step. Very good for UK science. Scientists are not simply middle class - plenty of working class ones by origin as I was. The Tory talk about having our own global science scheme was the usual 'Global Britain' twaddle peddled by Leaver politicians and others. Hopefully some bigwig politician will eventually summon the courage to take us back in to the EU though we won't achieve the same advantageous terms secured by the late Mrs Thatcher: she must be turning in her grave as a former chemist and proponent of the single market.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 08-Sept-23 12:58:32

I am quite certain that closer working in many areas will happen within a very short time.

It doesn’t matter why or how it occurs but it is such good news for our poor beleaguered country.

Seagull72 Fri 08-Sept-23 12:50:17

My daughter benefitted from Erasmus and had a great experience studying abroad. Hope this is brought back as it is a wonderful opportunity for all students, not just the wealthy.

Trurider1 Fri 08-Sept-23 12:01:10

A lot of very Typical answeres from Europhiles and Remoaners that ignore the true FACTS.

The UK had agreed prior to leaving the E.U. participation in the Horizon project. But when we left the E.U. acted like a Spoilt child and said YOU are not playing with my toys. We said - Fine We will keep our money which upset them.

We then said - WE had an agrement and we will see you in Court. Guess who has won!!!

Now everyone appreciates that making deals with the E.U. is not straitforward as the E.U. is not trustworthy.

Fleurpepper Fri 08-Sept-23 10:50:53

Kandinsky

It’s great that now we’re out we can pick & choose the good bits about the EU that we want to be a part of. ( and there are some )

Win win!

Not at all. Cake and eat option has never been, and never will be, acceptable to EU, and quite rightly.

Picking bits will only happen if it suits them too, and at a great cost and only on 'second' level.

MaizieD Fri 08-Sept-23 10:30:16

Kandinsky

It’s great that now we’re out we can pick & choose the good bits about the EU that we want to be a part of. ( and there are some )

Win win!

We'll still have to conform to any regulations they might impose, without any say in their making.

It's second best.

Kandinsky Fri 08-Sept-23 10:19:35

It’s great that now we’re out we can pick & choose the good bits about the EU that we want to be a part of. ( and there are some )

Win win!

Fleurpepper Thu 07-Sept-23 21:33:39

DiamondLily

Urmstongran

As far as I know a delivery driver on a zero hours contract doesn’t need a degree. Or Erasmus Whitewave. It’s horses for courses.

Oh, a bit judgemental...I've known people, well educated and well read, that, for whatever reason, have taken low paid jobs, as a temporary solution.

No, they don't need a degree - but they might still be well educated, and have common sense.

Having a degree guarantees very little. 🙄

Yes, many of them immigrants. I've known doctors to work as waiters, and lorry drivers for some years, to work out how they could get 'equivalence' and get the required level of language.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 07-Sept-23 21:24:52

Also apparently there are a lot of closer working agreements lining up for us to sign up to, to make life easier for our scientists, educators, businesses, finance etc.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 07-Sept-23 21:22:55

Apparently the next closer working will almost certainly be an agreement about electric cars and country of origin amongst others.

Sunak has apparently until the end of the year to get it done. If not the U.K. economy will take a big hit, and the Tories won’t want that just before an election.

Erasmus it seems is to be left until and if Labour gain office.

CoolCoco Thu 07-Sept-23 21:02:46

The EU wasn’t “punishing” the U.K. - it was because of Johnson’s botched N.I. Protocol ( which Sunak has had to change). Funny that those who predicted that other countries would be clamouring to leave when they see how marvellously the U.K. is prospering outside of the EU hasn’t shown much sign of happening.

MayBee70 Thu 07-Sept-23 19:36:45

Urmstongran

Bodach

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Thank you Bodach I knew something about this but I have a brain like mince at present for good reason and I had forgotten the finer points. It was only when Sunak capitulated over NI (with Ursula vd Leyen purring ‘Dearest Rishi’ because the EU once again had the upper hand in negotiations) that the EU finally agreed to the UK rejoining Horizon. It’ll cost us though let’s hope it bears fruit. The EU are very risk averse which is admirable at times of course but many UK scientists aren’t quite so enamoured with their rules.

I don’t know many scientists to be honest, but all of the ones I do know are very opposed to Brexit. Are there any scientistsI would know that have spoken out against the EU and can you tell me their reasoning behind it.

Urmstongran Thu 07-Sept-23 18:45:23

Bodach

Fleurpepper

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Maybe the fact that the EU want the UK to pay around £2 billion for rejoining has something to do with it? I thought the UK was pretty skint. Birmingham Council being a good example ...

How many free clubs of any quality are you aware of?

Exactly! Not the EUs fault the UK chose to leave. Pettiness???

So you are a member of the local Golf Club and decide you don't want to follow the rules and pay subs. And then you throw a tantrum because you can't play - and you say the Club is being petty? Bizarre.

Taking your analogy further, Fleurpepper: if you give up your membership, the vast majority of golf clubs will continue to let you play if you pay the appropriate 'visitor's green fee'. In this case, Ukraine, NZ, Armenia and Israel are non-member 'visitors' and pay accordingly - but the petty old EU threw a tantrum and would not (until now) allow the UK the same courtesy. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Thank you Bodach I knew something about this but I have a brain like mince at present for good reason and I had forgotten the finer points. It was only when Sunak capitulated over NI (with Ursula vd Leyen purring ‘Dearest Rishi’ because the EU once again had the upper hand in negotiations) that the EU finally agreed to the UK rejoining Horizon. It’ll cost us though let’s hope it bears fruit. The EU are very risk averse which is admirable at times of course but many UK scientists aren’t quite so enamoured with their rules.

Oreo Thu 07-Sept-23 18:28:51

Thanks for the Spectator report on why we were not included in Horizon until now Bodach😃they put it much better than I did.
Although a remainer at the time of the vote I can see that the EU have been petty about some things, as you say I expect they were terrified about others wanting to leave the union.
I’m not so blinded that I think the EU is marvellous in every way.We do need a better relationship but I think it will come with time, and the UK will do well.

Bodach Thu 07-Sept-23 17:24:00

CoolCoco

It was the U.K. cutting off its nose to spite its face in the whole Brexit farce. That includes leaving the Horizon programme. Maybe most voters won’t care, but the scientific advances and research will affect everyone - for example, the joint satellite technology which tracks the weather, storms, floods, climate change etc which is becoming increasingly important. I’m guessing most voters would agree that collaboration in research is more important than an insular little England mentality

But the UK always said that it planned to rejoin the Horizon programme asap. It was the EU which wouldn't let it - because in its terror of other members opting to leave, it felt that the UK had to be seen to be punished for daring to do so.

Visgir1 Thu 07-Sept-23 16:56:32

I too read The Spectator report.
I like many others were unaware they had countries not even in Europe being part of the Horizon set up.