State of Chaos: BBC2

For MaiziedD and her (ludicrous) "Ms Kuenssberg has previously not been noted for her impartiality", I presume this is because LK was one of several who shredded lame duck Corbyn in various i'views

Don't be silly.

Whitewavemark2

What peeves me about Kuenssberg is the fact that she parroted the lies told by the leave campaign, Johnson and Baker etc, knowing full well that they were lies.

It makes for very poor journalism and badly lets their readers/listeners down.

I was sitting shouting at the TV, asking Kuennsberg why she hadn't asked these questions/discussed these doubts at the time. But, we must remember that during this nightmare, unreal period of politics, the BBC was known as The Brexit Broadcasting Company, it is only very recently, that there is even discussion about it, let alone criticism. As for Nadine Dorries and her doe eyed adoration of Johnson......nauseating.

Whitewavemark2

I blame Cameron’s government for a huge amount.

Austerity which led to Brexit.

His cowardice in the face of Farage which led to the referendum.

And his walking away which led to the chaos we saw in last nights programme.

I absolutely agree.

DrWatson

Some very strange comments on here, not a surprise re Politics, and having to strain memories by going back a few years.

For MaiziedD and her (ludicrous) "Ms Kuenssberg has previously not been noted for her impartiality", I presume this is because LK was one of several who shredded lame duck Corbyn in various i'views (it was hardly difficult), and it hasn't been forgotten. Well, she's also embarrassed Tories and LibDems by tough questioning, but folk see WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE on such shows, not what actually occurs.

Andrew Neil when at BBC was regarded as "right wing" and a "Brexiteer", but he regularly shredded Tories (as well as Corbyn & Livingstone), BJ was too scared to actually do a 2019 i'view with him after previous experiences, and he almost reduced chief Brexit journo James Delingpole to tears on 'This Week' one night, but still some biased viewers keep spouting the same nonsense.

As for Hammond, he was a major Remain fan, (as was the hapless Mrs May) saddled with negotiating the "will of the people" through a Commons that was hopelessly split. I'd check what he says carefully if he remarked that the sun is shining.

If people don't like the Brexit concept (quite understandable) it's odd that Corbyn doesn't get more blame, as his lukewarm attitude in the 2016 campaign speeches hardly helped :- "well, it's our official policy" (Remain) "but I've never liked the EU, and it's a major institution of Capitalism, so vote for it if you must".
If you look at the data, the Brexit win could be put at the door of several million Labour voters who voted Leave despite their official policy?

[NB -- to be clear, after many voting decades, I have no faith in any politicos, any badge, having seen so much corruption and incompetence over many years]

You obviously don’t follow these threads because some of us have never held back from condemning Corbyn for his lacklustre support for vote remain. Time and time again I’ve referred to the chants of where’s Jeremy Corbyn on the people’s vote marches. As for remembering the events of the past few years, they’re imprinted in my memory. I sometimes wish they weren’t! It’s also been pointed out many times that the referendum was called because of Cameron’s fear of UKIP.

Here's another example of people with faulty memory :- 'winterwhite' said "what was intended as an ‘advisory’ straw-poll type referendum " . . .well, it never was. That expensive glossy brochure produced by Dave & George, sent to every UK household, strongly recommended the Remain position, and DID say "use your vote carefully, the result WILL govern our policy".

I presume they were so confident of their campaign, and the expected result (to them) that Dave didn't bother to insist on a chunky majority for such a change, perhaps 57.5 to 42.5, but the actual campaign was awful, and like so many Westminster-bound politicos (the Islington clique in Labour is another) he didn't realise the depth of feeling in the Midlands and North.

That vote was SUPPOSED to answer the massive rise in UKIP popularity (people have forgotten all the Council wins they got round the country) and then confirm that we should indeed Remain, but was undermined by incompetence, no surprise.

Still, at least we hadn't gone into 2 pointless wars, (Bliar), and sold off half our Gold Reserves at bargain prices (Brown).

I suggested many years ago that we should contract out our Govt to somewhere sensible, say Holland or Denmark, as they could do a much better job on perhaps 2 days a week. I've seen little since to change that opinion.

Some very strange comments on here, not a surprise re Politics, and having to strain memories by going back a few years.

For MaiziedD and her (ludicrous) "Ms Kuenssberg has previously not been noted for her impartiality", I presume this is because LK was one of several who shredded lame duck Corbyn in various i'views (it was hardly difficult), and it hasn't been forgotten. Well, she's also embarrassed Tories and LibDems by tough questioning, but folk see WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE on such shows, not what actually occurs.

Andrew Neil when at BBC was regarded as "right wing" and a "Brexiteer", but he regularly shredded Tories (as well as Corbyn & Livingstone), BJ was too scared to actually do a 2019 i'view with him after previous experiences, and he almost reduced chief Brexit journo James Delingpole to tears on 'This Week' one night, but still some biased viewers keep spouting the same nonsense.

As for Hammond, he was a major Remain fan, (as was the hapless Mrs May) saddled with negotiating the "will of the people" through a Commons that was hopelessly split. I'd check what he says carefully if he remarked that the sun is shining.

If people don't like the Brexit concept (quite understandable) it's odd that Corbyn doesn't get more blame, as his lukewarm attitude in the 2016 campaign speeches hardly helped :- "well, it's our official policy" (Remain) "but I've never liked the EU, and it's a major institution of Capitalism, so vote for it if you must".
If you look at the data, the Brexit win could be put at the door of several million Labour voters who voted Leave despite their official policy?

[NB -- to be clear, after many voting decades, I have no faith in any politicos, any badge, having seen so much corruption and incompetence over many years]

It was Cameron who said the government would do what the people wanted, more fool him. May was out of her depth. The Buffoon simply used it all to advance his career. Then Truss messed up big time. Sunak is a caretaker. Labour seem to be inching towards cooperation with the EU which we desperately need after all the anti-EU propaganda aimed at pleasing the ERG and Little Englanders.

The real mistake was acting on the result of the referendum. They should have kept it as an advisory vote, as it should have been. Our democracy has never been driven by referenda - Boaty McBoatface tells you why. The 52/48% result should have been the basis for an investigation into people's reasons for voting and what changes could be made to our membership to improve people's perception of it.

I would just add that our local council wants a "meaningful" majority of at least 60/40% if they ask residents to vote on parking permits. I would have thought that the political future of the country was rather more important and would definitely need a meaningful majority.

Do you remember The Sun's headline when Johnson decided he was going to head the Leave campaign?

Out - for himself!

Johnson gambled that this was the way to Number 10 - and thanks to Cummings, he got there.

I shall never cease to be angry and disappointed at the result of the referendum. And I also blame Cameron for not standing up to the UKIP brigade.

What peeves me about Kuenssberg is the fact that she parroted the lies told by the leave campaign, Johnson and Baker etc, knowing full well that they were lies.

It makes for very poor journalism and badly lets their readers/listeners down.

SpringsEternal

I don't know if I can bear to watch it. I began, but my blood pressure shot up. I'll have to watch in bite size portions. Part of my anger is directed at Kuenssberg herself: as you said MayBee why didn't she (and Nick Robinson, for instance) ask some decent questions! Maitlis said they had experts queuing up to explain why it was a stupid idea and then searched for half an hour to find one person willing to defend it. I'd almost forgotten the lies and obfuscation.

I thought I’d struggle with it because I dislike Kuenssberg, especially after the way she used to fawn over Johnson, but I found it riveting. And to think that, the very people that gave us Brexit were then responsible for our lives when the pandemic struck and they were too busy trying to sort Brexit out to notice what was happening in China. And I’m still furious that in the main debate the BBC gave Johnson the last words even though Ruth Davidson and Sadiq Khan had given a much better argument for remaining. Imo his three word meaningless sound bite won it. I still don’t really understand why Johnson left the leadership contest after Cameron quit. To think that Cameron called for a referendum because he was so scared of UKIP only for his party to morph into UKIP and destroy itself. If I was a Conservative voter I’d never forgive Cameron for his cowardice.

Parliament voted to have a referendum, knowing the result could go either way. Govt should have had a plan if vote was to leave. It wasn't up to only those who supported leave. Govt didn't have a plan because they wanted and expected remain. They campaigned for remain, sending leaflets out to everyone urging them to vote remain. Talk of emergency budgets etc, none of which came to pass. Despite this the majority voted leave. Cameron fault no plan. Then he p***ed off

I don't know if I can bear to watch it. I began, but my blood pressure shot up. I'll have to watch in bite size portions. Part of my anger is directed at Kuenssberg herself: as you said MayBee why didn't she (and Nick Robinson, for instance) ask some decent questions! Maitlis said they had experts queuing up to explain why it was a stupid idea and then searched for half an hour to find one person willing to defend it. I'd almost forgotten the lies and obfuscation.

Worst PMs we have had this century - Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss. Now we have caretaker Sunak trying to rescue a defunct Tory government.

Isn’t Dominic Cummings in the process of setting up a new political party?

It's a very interesting watch. I'd forgotten how poisonous Steve Baker was. Nadine was just as awful as ever, weeping bitter tears when beloved Boris dropped out of the leadership race while insulting Theresa May for trying to make something out of an impossible situation. I almost felt sorry for Matt Hancock being so shocked about being blatantly lied to about the proroguing = but then he did go on working for Boris so perhaps I'm not sorry at all.

The next one should have some interesting stuff about Dominic Cummings.

Whitewavemark2

I do think that we need to re-think the constitution. Some sort of PR would be a start, and the ability to take away the whip under some circumstances should be stopped.

Rory Stewart describes how it is almost impossible to vote against the government or even abstain by one if the governments MPs.

If anyone is interested, I'm working my way through this long report by the charity 'Justice' (posted by a barrister on twitter) on government challenges to the Rule of Law. It covers many concerns about the process of legislation.

From the Executive Summary:

The report finds that over the past decade and particularly in the last five years, the process of lawmaking has become less transparent, less accountable, less inclusive, and less democratic. Using the framework of the Venice Commission’s Rule of Law Toolkit, we assess the cumulative impact of these changes on our democracy against five rule of law benchmarks:

files.justice.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/31123029/JUSTICE-The-State-Were-In-Addressing-Threats-Challenges-to-the-Rule-of-Law-September-2023.pdf

We missed this, thanks for starting the thread Maybee.

Whitewavemark2

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

And self righteous Steve Baker!!

Oh yes!! We did see him 😲

Do watch it - it is so worth a watch.

I don’t like Kuenssberg, but this programme is good and a breath of fresh air after all the obfuscation we’ve had to put up with from the BBC.

Yes, we will, we watched most of it after our own mini state of chaos with the tv and box deciding that only ITV1 was fit to watch!

I think it's in three parts.

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

And self righteous Steve Baker!!

Oh yes!! We did see him 😲

Do watch it - it is so worth a watch.

I don’t like Kuenssberg, but this programme is good and a breath of fresh air after all the obfuscation we’ve had to put up with from the BBC.

Whitewavemark2

And self righteous Steve Baker!!

Oh yes!! We did see him 😲

And, did I hear right when they said that Theresa May’s manifesto for her disastrous election was written by her and her two SPADs? Is that how the Conservative Party works?

I don't think so, isn't that why some resigned?

I wish we'd recorded it because we had a problem with the TV and humax box, and missed some. Presumably it will be on iPlayer.
For some reason all we could get was ITV, it kept changing channels without anyone touching the remote then refusing to let us watch anything other than some daft programme with Davina McCall! We had to unplug it all.

Casdon

One of the most interesting sections was when Philip Hammond was talking about the prorogue of parliament in 2019 I thought. His horror (still) at the way it happened, and how wrong he thought it was was very compelling.

I still don’t understand why that wasn’t the end for Johnson.

I do think that we need to re-think the constitution. Some sort of PR would be a start, and the ability to take away the whip under some circumstances should be stopped.

Rory Stewart describes how it is almost impossible to vote against the government or even abstain by one if the governments MPs.

winterwhite

‘to think we lived through all this’ is exactly what we both thought.
It was staggering to realise so starkly that BJ didn’t care one way or the other about Brexit but just wanted to Win.

But we didn’t get an answer to the question of How did what was intended as an ‘advisory’ straw-poll type referendum become the inviolable will of the people. That was the huge mistake of the summer of 2016. Did no one say Hang on a minute. I blame David Cameron for that

I think you’re wrong about BJ tho.
I don’t think he did want to win, I think he just wanted more backing for himself.Nobody looked more shattered than him the morning after the referendum results.
I believe that we’d all be horrified a lot of the time if we realised how incompetent our governments are.