Tory U-Turn on green policies

Companies usually change their cars quite frequently. My husband used to get a new company car at least every two years, often more frequently as he racked up a lot of miles. People who lease cars usually don’t keep them for long. If no new petrol or diesel cars were to be produced after 2030 electric cars would be forced on them before there is likely to be a sufficient number of charging points throughout the country. Allowing more time for provision of the essential infrastructure seems entirely sensible.

Germanshepherdsmum

We didn’t have that, Mum was a better housewife than me!

We didn't either, but I remember my mother constantly wiping the walls down whenever there was the slightest sign of it or there was a strange smell. I can't remember the last time I wiped my bathroom or toilet walls down.

Same here!

Doodledog

The UK takes up nowhere near 1% of the occupied space on Earth, so being responsible for that percentage of emissions is not particularly laudable.

Having said that, I can't see the sense in making people scrap anything - boilers, cars, whatever, even if it is to replace them with more efficient models using more 'friendly' fuels. It can't be ecologically sound to throw away working items and force people to buy new ones. We have always hung onto things, preferring to wait until absolutely necessary to replace them - so much now seems to be about built-in obsolescence, and policies that exacerbate that can't be sensible.

Doodledog Landlords don't need to replace heating systems to achieve an EPC C, unless they're really antiquated (in which case landlords shouldn't be in business).

I was talking about this with my son, whose father owns ten rental properties (and makes plenty of money out of them). All the properties have an EPC C or above after relative minor and cheap improvements.

I wasn't talking about landlords. I was talking about people being asked to replace boilers, or drivers of diesel and petrol cars.

From a business point of view there is still not an Electric van with enough weight capacity to fulfil our daily deliveries.

We can only hope that the commercial vehicle manufacturers have an equivalent rolling off of the production lines eventually.

They will also have to have a viable mileage range when fully laden.

GrannyGravy13

From a business point of view there is still not an Electric van with enough weight capacity to fulfil our daily deliveries.

We can only hope that the commercial vehicle manufacturers have an equivalent rolling off of the production lines eventually.

They will also have to have a viable mileage range when fully laden.

I agree that diesel and petrol need to be phased out eventually, but it makes no sense to do so until the infrastructure is in place for electric cars (or another clean fuel). Westminster residents may be tripping over charging points, but they are very thin on the ground elsewhere, and there are issues with building electric cars as well as their weight.

It really is important that all of these things are properly thought through, as well as costed - with sensible schemes for supporting people who have to move from one system (whether of transport or heating) to another.

Totally agree Doodledog

Romola

This thing about the UK producing only 1% of emissions doesn't mean we don't need to do any more.
One reason our emissions are relatively low is that we have more or less outsourced industrial production to other countries, notably China.
There are many other countries who also produce 1% of emissions. Together the UK and those countries produce a lot of emissions. And as other countries start reducing, our proportion of emissions is going to go up unless we go on reducing them ourselves. Being smug and thinking we've done it is not good enough.
This is a crisis and we have to live differently from now on. Until the clever scientists and engineers work out how to store electricity, I imagine that life will be more like the 50s and early 60s, which we remember.

This absolutely. Sitting back and waiting, while continuing to import products made by processes that are high in emissions is not the way we should go. We have not, by any stretch of the imagination, done enough and I'm disgusted by this U-turn.

I agree too Doodledog.
As usual you write a sensible, pragmatic post.
We all know this is coming, indeed it must come, but there has been insufficient investment in the infrastructure needed for this to be viable. The Westminster bubble will certainly have plenty of charging points but they’re as frequent as hen’s teeth where I live, and I don’t live in a leafy village out in the sticks, but a small town that was once a village, and it is only ten miles from the nearest city, which also has few charging points.

Thank you GSM for telling me that the newest heat pumps are very efficient. That’s what I need to know. I need to know that when we exchange our gas boiler, which makes our home cosy and warm in the cold weather, for a heat pump, that it will be able to heat our not huge, forty year old, four bed house, properly. I’ve been hoping to hear that new technology is improving the ability of heat pumps to work properly in our cold and damp climate, but before you mentioned it, I had heard nothing. That’s why I think we need more time, because the technology will certainly improve. I’m still very uncertain about how poorer people will afford these changes though, as boilers are thousands cheaper than heat pumps.

Incidentally, my daughter has a heat pump in her house in New Zealand. It does not
heat her house adequately in the winter.

I don’t know if a retro-fitted heat pump would work as well as ours, maddy. It was installed when the house was converted from a small bungalow and we have underfloor heating throughout. I believe that retro-fitting can be quite a palaver, involving new pipes and radiators. Not something I would want to go for. They are ugly things but ours is placed out of sight and also screened by shrubs.

GSM is your heat pump noisy?
That’s one criticism I have heard, as well as them not being suitable for very cold weather.

You say you are happy with yours though.

With regard to electric cars, we will change our cars once batteries are produced to give a range of four to five hundred miles, and once there are sufficient charging points around the country.
Once the infrastructure is adequately set up they are definitely the future.

I've heard that too GSM that new pipes and radiators have been needed in some houses to accommodate a heat pump fitted where it wasn't originally designed/intended for.

A big, messy and expensive job.

Casdon

Urmstongran

And what if you live in a terraced house Casdon? Where do those folk keep their 7 bins?

They are able to use different coloured bags instead which they leave out on recycling day, so they don’t take up more space, it’s all been thought through. People do take pride in recycling, it’s something we have become good at. A trial is also being done on giving money back for recycled cans near me, and that is going well so far.

Did those who thought it through run it past the urban fox population?
Good luck with that!
🙄

Not sure what you mean? The food waste bin is small, solid plastic and secure because it has a lock tight lid, and you don’t put any food waste in any of the other bins, so there’s nothing for foxes.

Yes, I’ve heard about the new pipes and massive new radiators that are needed for many houses. and how big the actual unit is in the garden. This has made me very unhappy about having this technology forced upon me, unless the technology improves. I was banking on that happening so that we wouldn’t need to have all those expensive modifications simply to heat our house, which is already fitted with a perfectly adequate central heating system that works as it should do and actually heats our home. When we talk to our daughter and grandchildren in NZ, they are sometimes all cuddled up in one bed because the house is so cold. The heat pump is inadequate and doesn’t heat the house properly.

And I have massive concerns about the affordability of heat pumps for the poorer, and even not so poor, members of society. Those who support these changes being rushed through appear to give no thought at all to the people who simply won’t be able to afford these changes, even with government grants.

Germanshepherdsmum

Companies usually change their cars quite frequently. My husband used to get a new company car at least every two years, often more frequently as he racked up a lot of miles. People who lease cars usually don’t keep them for long. If no new petrol or diesel cars were to be produced after 2030 electric cars would be forced on them before there is likely to be a sufficient number of charging points throughout the country. Allowing more time for provision of the essential infrastructure seems entirely sensible.

You could buy a secondhand petrol or diesel car., though?

While they are still around no-one is being prevented from buying them.

maddyone

Yes, I’ve heard about the new pipes and massive new radiators that are needed for many houses. and how big the actual unit is in the garden. This has made me very unhappy about having this technology forced upon me, unless the technology improves. I was banking on that happening so that we wouldn’t need to have all those expensive modifications simply to heat our house, which is already fitted with a perfectly adequate central heating system that works as it should do and actually heats our home. When we talk to our daughter and grandchildren in NZ, they are sometimes all cuddled up in one bed because the house is so cold. The heat pump is inadequate and doesn’t heat the house properly.

And I have massive concerns about the affordability of heat pumps for the poorer, and even not so poor, members of society. Those who support these changes being rushed through appear to give no thought at all to the people who simply won’t be able to afford these changes, even with government grants.

Heat pumps are not the only option

Di you not read Wwmk2's list earlier today?

No, our air source heat pump isn’t noisy Jennifer. A Mitsubishi. Mind you, if you lived in a bungalow and it was under your bedroom window you might notice it when it kicks in.

Yes Smileless, as I understand it retro-fitting is a big, messy and expensive job. Possibly necessitating some re plastering and decorating too. Bearing that in mind I really don’t think they are a practical alternative unless fitted when the property is built. I don’t know how good they are with radiators either as we have underfloor heating throughout and I have heard that’s what they are best suited to but I don’t know it for a fact. I can only say we are pleased with ours, which despite running continuously is very economical - the room thermostats determine when it starts up. We find the immersion heater is preferable for hot water rather than relying on the heat pump for it. I wouldn’t hesitate to have one again provided it was fitted when the property was built, that there was underfloor heating throughout and that it was hidden out of sight - they look awful in plain sight.

Growstuff

“Why does the floor need digging up?

You really have no idea what you're talking about.”

Heat pumps work best with ground source and underfloor heating that is expensive and disruptive to install in an existing house. It’s best suited to new build houses on a fairly large plot, smaller estate houses would use air source heat pumps which are much less efficient, in fact they have to use heater elements in very cold weather. If underfloor heating is not used then double the number of radiators are needed, in all cases a high level of insulation is needed.

So although Heat Pumps “can” be efficient and cheap to run, often they are not if they are not installed properly

With regard to bins, I actually wish we had more bins. Our area is abysmal with it’s recycling. No garden waste is taken, no food waste is taken and there is no facility at all to recycle food waste. At least we can take our own garden waste to the tip where it is recycled. No bottle caps, no yoghurt pots, no margarine containers, and masses of other things for which there is no bin and no facility to recycle. We have to take our own glass to the bottle bank, it’s not collected. That’s fine for those of us who have a car and are fit enough to pick up bags of glass. What about the old person who cannot lift a box of glass and has no car anyway?
Give us the bins please. In my area we need them.

MaizieD

Germanshepherdsmum

Companies usually change their cars quite frequently. My husband used to get a new company car at least every two years, often more frequently as he racked up a lot of miles. People who lease cars usually don’t keep them for long. If no new petrol or diesel cars were to be produced after 2030 electric cars would be forced on them before there is likely to be a sufficient number of charging points throughout the country. Allowing more time for provision of the essential infrastructure seems entirely sensible.

You could buy a secondhand petrol or diesel car., though?

While they are still around no-one is being prevented from buying them.

Businesses could buy second hand vehicles, though I doubt it would be practical.

We buy new vehicles (business) due to the reliability and the warranty, they are sold after two years for peanuts due to the excessive mileage

I doubt I will need to buy another car unless mine is written off Maizie. Its mileage is low for its age and it’s well maintained. If I had to replace it I would do precisely that, second hand if by then Germany has ceased production of petrol-powered Porsches.

Casdon

Not sure what you mean? The food waste bin is small, solid plastic and secure because it has a lock tight lid, and you don’t put any food waste in any of the other bins, so there’s nothing for foxes.

Same here! My food waste bin is small and lock tight.