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20mph speed limit....for or against?

(230 Posts)
Chestnut Sun 24-Sep-23 17:10:29

The 20mph speed limit has started in Wales and is supposed to be coming to England. Are you for or against?

I think the problem is not the statutory speed limit but the way people drive. We have speeding, drink driving and selfish behaviour on the roads, which have nothing to do with the speed limit.

I'd rather see 20mph near schools and hospitals and selected areas, not all built up areas. There is a petition in Wales with nearly half a million signatures and I'm not surprised.
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1816115/wales-20mph-speed-limit-petition-protest

Chestnut Wed 27-Sep-23 17:46:35

GRANOFOUR

I once read that research had been done in an accident-simulation facility which showed that, while the number of injuries at 30 mph were lower than at 20 mph, a child was more likely to be killed at 20 mph than 30 mph because at the slower speed the child was more likely to be dragged under the car sustaining fatal injuries, whereas at 30 mph the child was more likely to bounce off the bonnet and therefore more likely to survive injuries sustained. Unfortunately, I can't seem to be able to find the link to the article otherwise I would have posted said link.

I'm another that would like to see that. If you can find it then please post a link as that would definitely be worth keeping. 📰

Skye17 Wed 27-Sep-23 21:02:30

According to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, one of the best studies shows that the risk of a pedestrian dying when hit by a car is over four times greater if they are hit at 30 mph than at 20 mph.

RoSPA say that an Austrian city which introduced a 20 mph (30 km/h) limit in 1992 found that a year later, there were 24% fewer accidents resulting in serious injury in the city, compared to before the new speed limit was introduced.

When Portsmouth introduced a 20 mph limit on 94% of its road in 2007, there was a 21% reduction in police reported injuries.

RoSPA also reports that in a recent pilot scheme in South Central Edinburgh, residents said they appreciated the increased safety for children and the better walking and cycling conditions. In the year following the launch of the scheme, journeys on foot increased by 7% and journeys by bicycle by 5%.

A recent review shows that 20 mph zones and limits were effective in reducing accidents, injuries and traffic volumes, say RoSPA.

www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf

Skye17 Wed 27-Sep-23 21:24:21

Rod King, founder of the 20’s Plenty for Us pressure group, points out that the 30 mph limit was chosen over 80 years ago in an arbitrary way, without evidence or research on survivability.

In 2016 11 people a week were killed on 30 mph roads, and 246 a week were seriously injured. Since well enforced 20 mph limits prevent 20% of casualties, over the UK they would mean about 2 fewer deaths a week and 49 fewer serious injuries.

Rod King also states that this policy would cost about £2 per head for individual local authorities to implement, and £1 per head if brought in by central government.

www.20splenty.org/30mph_unjust

Callistemon21 Wed 27-Sep-23 21:35:23

I don't think posters are generally against about 20mph restrictions in built-up areas or villages along main roads where there may be pedestrians, near schools, shopping areas, hospitals etc but are they necessary in areas, especially at night where pedestrians are rarely seen?
And 40mph on dual carriageways where there are no pedestrians, no houses - no buildings in fact?

Just a police speed van. £££

ChickenLicken Wed 27-Sep-23 22:32:16

Callistemon
You are right, there are numerous conflicting signs that I have noticed.

There is a stretch of road in my area between two villages that is notorious for accidents on a particular bend. There are two properties along the straighter section of this road, between these a new 30 mph limit has gone up. No logic whatsoever. The accident black spot? That is National speed limit.

This could have been so much more efficient if there had been local input & common sense!!

The vehicle I drive is automatic, will only set cruise control at 20 or above. It’s fine on the flat & going uphill, once on a downward part of road it can’t hold back & the speed increases. Applying brake then cancels the cruise control.
I’m trying my best to be a law abiding citizen & not a moaning Minnie, honestly - but whereas in some areas it has little impact on journeys in our neck of the woods it means taking GD to dance class from ours takes 6.5 - 7 mins to drive 1.3 miles. (We have this data on the vehicle tracker.)Buses are not a viable option, rail services only from next town & even then they aren’t reliable.

The situations vary tremendously between city & country. Cycling is not an option for my needs.

20mph where necessary - absolutely.
20mph without good reason - absolute nonsense.

Yes, we will probably have to suck-it-up- buttercup because Dictatorford insists. And when interviewed, he continues to insist 20mph everywhere - & smirked 🤬

Casdon Wed 27-Sep-23 23:32:47

Councils put up the signs, not Welsh Government, and they are local. This law was passed by the Senedd, not just the Labour Party, here’s what Adam Price, Plaid Cymru, had to say.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/adam-price-shares-personal-tragedy-27799567
The Tories tried to force a vote of no confidence in the transport minister, they were outvoted 42 to 16.
People will get used to it after the teething problems are resolved.

Callistemon21 Thu 28-Sep-23 11:51:43

People will get used to it after the teething problems are resolved

Will they?
Businesses are complaining that they will suffer and a petition to rescind the decision is heading for half a million signatures.

I wonder if political leaders have become used to the idea that they can become dictatorial after the fear instilled in people due to Covid?

Casdon Thu 28-Sep-23 12:19:20

Callistemon21

^People will get used to it after the teething problems are resolved^

Will they?
Businesses are complaining that they will suffer and a petition to rescind the decision is heading for half a million signatures.

I wonder if political leaders have become used to the idea that they can become dictatorial after the fear instilled in people due to Covid?

Well, the reality is that they aren’t going to have the option, they will have to get used to it because it doesn’t look as if there’s any chance of the government changing its mind - regardless of the petition, that was specifically mentioned - hence the support in the Senedd. I’ve been out and about quite a bit this week, and people are complying. I haven’t been to Cardiff yet, but as somebody said earlier in the thread there’s so much traffic that the average speed isn’t much above 20 anyway.

Wheniwasyourage Thu 28-Sep-23 13:52:01

Surely anything that will persuade people to get out of their cars if walking or cycling is more efficient and safer must be a good thing. And before the whitabootery starts, I know that some people can't walk any distance and some people need cars or vans for work, but they too would benefit from having less traffic, and particularly fewer cars doing short journeys.

Callistemon21 Thu 28-Sep-23 14:22:54

We're complying because several villages around here were 20mph anyway, which is understandable.

But we seem to be the only ones sticking to 40mph on major dual carriageways- cars and vans keep whizzing past us.
As for 50mph on a very quiet motorway, that seems to be without rhyme or reason i

Callistemon21 Thu 28-Sep-23 14:24:33

Wheniwasyourage

Surely anything that will persuade people to get out of their cars if walking or cycling is more efficient and safer must be a good thing. And before the whitabootery starts, I know that some people can't walk any distance and some people need cars or vans for work, but they too would benefit from having less traffic, and particularly fewer cars doing short journeys.

Whataboutery in spades here.

SueDonim Thu 28-Sep-23 14:40:30

Callistemon21

We're complying because several villages around here were 20mph anyway, which is understandable.

But we seem to be the only ones sticking to 40mph on major dual carriageways- cars and vans keep whizzing past us.
As for 50mph on a very quiet motorway, that seems to be without rhyme or reason i

40mph on dual carriageways? It would take me 15 hours (plus many stops) to get to ds2’s house!

A blanket 40mph rule would mean all those promises of ‘Next Day Delivery’ were dead in the water unless they resort to planes, which would up prices.

Casdon Thu 28-Sep-23 15:05:47

I’m getting confused now. The speed limits for dual carriageways and single carriageways in Wales haven’t changed, they are the same as in the rest of the UK. The only change is that 30mph speed limit has been reduced to 20mph in built up residential areas. Some councils may have of their own volition changed the local speed limits in some spots, but that isn’t part of the Welsh Government legislation, so must be responding to perceived local need.
Here’s the explainer.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/everything-you-need-know-wales-27698696

Callistemon21 Thu 28-Sep-23 15:18:39

Casdon

I’m getting confused now. The speed limits for dual carriageways and single carriageways in Wales haven’t changed, they are the same as in the rest of the UK. The only change is that 30mph speed limit has been reduced to 20mph in built up residential areas. Some councils may have of their own volition changed the local speed limits in some spots, but that isn’t part of the Welsh Government legislation, so must be responding to perceived local need.
Here’s the explainer.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/everything-you-need-know-wales-27698696

The M4CaN.

Casdon Thu 28-Sep-23 15:23:37

The M4 speed restriction isn’t anything to do with the 20mph changes though, it’s due to the traffic bottleneck around Newport, and it’s been like that since March 2021?

Skye17 Thu 28-Sep-23 16:33:18

Casdon

Councils put up the signs, not Welsh Government, and they are local. This law was passed by the Senedd, not just the Labour Party, here’s what Adam Price, Plaid Cymru, had to say.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/adam-price-shares-personal-tragedy-27799567
The Tories tried to force a vote of no confidence in the transport minister, they were outvoted 42 to 16.
People will get used to it after the teething problems are resolved.

People will get used to it

That’s what the head of Spain’s National Road Safety Observatory says from his experience in Spain since May 2021.

//The Welsh even published a message of reassurance from Álvaro Gomez, the head of Spain’s National Road Safety Observatory…

Gomez recalls the same problems being raised in Spain before the policy came into force.

“They are in this phase of concern but they will see good results,” he said. “There are some fears beforehand about people taking longer to get to jobs or deliveries being slowed down. There are no big delays, there is no congestion. There is no increase of pollution. Everything becomes normal, and everything gets better.//
apple.news/ApOMbVJHjTdq6XiVLgXX-rQ

Sweden has this limit on thousands of kilometres of roads around the country, including much of Stockholm, They started bringing this in in the 1990s. They must find it works.

Callistemon21 Thu 28-Sep-23 16:36:09

Casdon

The M4 speed restriction isn’t anything to do with the 20mph changes though, it’s due to the traffic bottleneck around Newport, and it’s been like that since March 2021?

No, sorry, I meant the M4 Corridor Relief Road which is a dual carriageway.

Janetashbolt Sat 30-Sep-23 15:47:08

I live in a 20 zone no schools but large playing field and loads of kids. The next road over is 30 and has the school on it, makes no sense

Freshair Sun 01-Oct-23 01:06:16

No dear God, no! It's a crazy idea.

StillNotGinger Mon 02-Oct-23 22:54:37

Skye17

According to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, one of the best studies shows that the risk of a pedestrian dying when hit by a car is over four times greater if they are hit at 30 mph than at 20 mph.

RoSPA say that an Austrian city which introduced a 20 mph (30 km/h) limit in 1992 found that a year later, there were 24% fewer accidents resulting in serious injury in the city, compared to before the new speed limit was introduced.

When Portsmouth introduced a 20 mph limit on 94% of its road in 2007, there was a 21% reduction in police reported injuries.

RoSPA also reports that in a recent pilot scheme in South Central Edinburgh, residents said they appreciated the increased safety for children and the better walking and cycling conditions. In the year following the launch of the scheme, journeys on foot increased by 7% and journeys by bicycle by 5%.

A recent review shows that 20 mph zones and limits were effective in reducing accidents, injuries and traffic volumes, say RoSPA.

www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf

I was hit by a car in a 20mph zone, that was probably its speed as the road is quite narrow.

I bounced off the bonnet. I got bruised ribs, a cut to my ankle, and cuts and grazes to my face and hands. A 2cm cut on my scalp made for plenty of blood so it looked spectacular. Broke my glasses.

At 30mph I bet that list would be a lot longer.

M0nica Tue 03-Oct-23 00:05:41

If we reduced the speed limit to 10 mph there would be even fewer accidents and if we returned to the time when someone had to walk in front of every car carrying a red flag, including on all motorways and dual carriages road accidents could probably be totally eliminated.

Rosie51 Tue 03-Oct-23 00:28:14

You've put your head above the parapet M0nica, something I contemplated but chickened out of grin Yes if 20 is good, 10mph would be even better. I don't believe we have enough people willing to walk waving a red flag to accommodate your final idea, but with a 4mph limit I really don't think they'll be necessary.
Seriously, of course everyone wants there to be less casualties from road accidents, but this blanket 20 mph isn't the way. Where it's appropriate, absolutely! but a major red route thoroughfare......? That's what has been decided in my part of London.

M0nica Tue 03-Oct-23 07:13:43

Rosie51 I have a history of putting my head above the parapet. In fact one my aunts used to comment on this even when I was a child.

MaizieD Tue 03-Oct-23 07:56:37

Why are posters persistently referring to a 'blanket 20mph'?

There is no such thing in existence or planned.

Such a lot of manufactured indignation over a road safety measure which posters who have been living with for a while say is absolutely fine, and which is being played up as a supposed vote winner by a desperate tory party. (Despite the fact that many tory led councils are implementing 20mph zones)

Wheniwasyourage Tue 03-Oct-23 08:02:40

Good post MaizieD. There are those who will complain about anything which seems to threaten the mighty car. Not to mention exaggerating any “threat”!