Police turn in guns - can we blame them?

The police have to be accountable when a shot is fired, officers have been known to break the law.

The CPS does not prosecute lightly, I doubt we know all the facts regarding this case.

From phone ins, from police officers, this morning, it seems their major bugbear is how long it takes the IPCC and the CPS to investigate, and make a decision. The court case isn't until September next year - that's too long.

They feel unsupported through the whole process. So, no, I don't blame them. Of course, they need to be accountable, but they have to make split second decisions.

It seems to me that those officers who are withdrawing are saying they want power without accountability, which I’m opposed to.

maddyone

My son would not be driving a stolen car.
My son has never been involved in any incident involving firearms, ever.
My son has never served time for carrying a firearm.
My son would comply with police instructions if he was asked to get out of his car.
Therefore it follows, it wouldn’t be my son.

Nor mine and for someone to suggest otherwise is quite astonishing.

Jean Charles de Menezes died at a time when underground trains, and buses, had been blown up in London by terrorists. As stated, he was an illegal immigrant, and ran away from the Police towards the train platforms - he also had a back pack. What were they to do? Begin a risk assessment, when he could have got onto a train? The Police had no idea of his intentions and had to make that split second decision that none of us would want to be responsible for.

Maybe training not to shoot to kill would be better,

Was that a serious statement or was it irony, Mollygo?

I'd always understood that police gunmen were trained not to shoot to kill.

Whitewave the person in the car was suspected of being involved in an armed crime the previous day which sheds rather a different light on things. Also he was refusing to get out of the car, which would increase suspicion, and he was trying to ram a police car out the way so he could escape, which would also increase suspicion.
I totally agree with you that the law applies to all, and yet it is not illegal for certain police to carry firearms. That is because sadly, it is necessary sometimes for police to be armed, legally. People such as you and I would not find ourselves in that position. Neither would our children. Others, who break the law by carrying firearms may well find themselves in such a position. The answer is that they shouldn’t carry illegal firearms whilst committing crimes. The answer is not to charge the police in these type of circumstances.

Wayne Couzens is in a completely different class. He killed a woman (without a firearm) because he was a perverted, sexist murderer and rapist. He deserved to be charged and convicted. It was a planned attack.

The two cases are not in any way comparable. Not that I’m saying you have compared them.

Killing a suspect doesn't sound like 'reasonable force' to me.

dI might think differently if he's actually produced a gun.. but killing on suspicion of carrying a gun?

I'm with BlueBelle on this one.

I don’t know all the details.
It’s dreadful that this man was killed, innocent or not, but I don’t blame the police for handing in their guns.
Maybe training not to shoot to kill would be better, especially if the criminals have the same training.

“Police officers must act, and be seen to act, in accordance with the law. This contributes to police legitimacy by encouraging the public to trust that the police do not act arbitrarily and are subject to the same rules as everyone else. Acting in accordance with the law provides protection for officers,”

So, it a British citizen kills an unarmed person in their car, because they knew that, that person had been previously found guilty of armed crime, should that citizen been tried in a court of law?

Whitewavemark2

We must be confident that the rule of law is adhered to. Every citizen is subject to it in the U.K.

Yes, precisely.
The rule of law doesn’t appear to have been breached here though.
There are guidelines as to when police can shoot.
If the person concerned was believed to have been carrying a gun, then they are allowed to use reasonable force. Reasonable force would include using a gun in this case, otherwise the police wouldn’t have been armed, which they were.

Charles de Menezes was an illegal immigrant, who when asked to stop by police, ran away and jumped over the tube train barrier.

Therefore, exactly as I said;

My son is not an illegal immigrant.
My son would not run away if challenged by police and asked to stop (as stated previously.)

It would really help if posters would compare like with like.

We must be confident that the rule of law is adhered to. Every citizen is subject to it in the U.K.

Not necessarily, Maddyone. Remember Jean Charles de Menezes?

My son would not be driving a stolen car.
My son has never been involved in any incident involving firearms, ever.
My son has never served time for carrying a firearm.
My son would comply with police instructions if he was asked to get out of his car.
Therefore it follows, it wouldn’t be my son.

I agree Tizliz.

Fleurpepper He had carried a firearm before, and was imprisoned for it and released in 2021. No doubt the police officer concerned would have preferred not to fire but he didn't have a crystal ball with him.

BlueBelle

Well not in this case it seems Grannygravy
Kaba was driving a car which was first rammed before being boxed in by police. He was killed by a single shot that entered through the driver’s side of the windscreen of the Audi

My goodness what chance did the poor man have no questions asked just boom boom dead why not shoot, the car tyre, shoot his arm, shoot his leg
Shoot him dead without a question absolutely no different to the US police in this instance, a million miles normally but in this occasion not a pin between them
Would you all be so sympathetic if it was your innocent son/brother/ nephew

My word I have no understanding of you all now

This, a million times. Your son, my grandson?

henetha

This is very worrying. I can understand how the Kaba family must feel, and they want justice of course.
But Mr.Kaba didn't cooperate with the police, I gather.
My sympathies are with the police, as their job is so very difficult.

He was apparently imprisoned for carrying a firearm in the past and released in 2021. He was driving a stolen car. He ignored the police warnings and tried to ram their car.

Do we want armed police who are afraid to shoot in case they are charged with murder? That would be worse than no armed police.

This is very worrying. I can understand how the Kaba family must feel, and they want justice of course.
But Mr.Kaba didn't cooperate with the police, I gather.
My sympathies are with the police, as their job is so very difficult.

The firearms officer concerned has yet to stand trial when, hopefully, all relevant information will be available. Until then his fellow officers should continue with their duties, as normal. Why not?

Presumably they believe an officer should not be charged in connection with the execution of their duty, and it’s the fact of the trial itself they object to?

Police officers should be answerable to the law, like the rest of us. Strict adherence to the law, which must be part of firearms officers’ training, is a necessary safeguard for a civilised population.

Yes Bluebelle, yes. You have it so right. My oh spent many years as an officer and refused to hold a firearm for the very reason he would not be prepared to shoot another human. The firearms squad should be so very very elite and perhaps the police should be carefully scrutinised now..

Okay, thanks for the link Sparklefizz. Now I know a bit more about this incident, I realise that innocent is not a word that should be applied to Chris Kaba. It was believed that the previous day he had been involved in a firearms incident! Red flag. He was driving a car not registered to him. Red flag. Upon being blocked in he was trying to ram a police car out of the way so he could escape. Red flag. He repeatedly refused to exit the car he was in. Red flag.
He could very well have been carrying a firearm, following his alleged activities the previous day.
Should the police have allowed him to potentially shoot one of them?
I believe he was found to be unarmed but the police had no way of knowing this!
So no, I don’t think he was in any ways innocent.
And yes, I support the police.

maddyone See my post 9:40:51