Tell me how this is right?

Daisy Anne

Could you stop issuing instructions, please. It is really is rather arrogant.

Ditto!

vampirequeen you seem determined that there shouldn't be any safe spaces. I notice you don't answer any questions put to you, just come back with your maligning of others. The trans activists are nothing like the gay rights movement. LGB people wanted equality not privilege. Transgender people, especially the men, want rights not enjoyed by other men. I presume your transgender friend uses the women's loos and changing rooms when these separate facilities are available? Why not use the men's?

What does it matter to any of you that a trans woman has won an award for doing something for a group that she belongs to and is accepted by? Was it an award you were nominated for? Is it an organisation that you work for? Are there not more important things to worry about than the gender of this prize winner? for me it's not this particular award, it's the appropriating of the word female. The winner is not female even if they've had surgery and take cross sex hormones. They can never be female unless that word now includes males. First they appropriated woman, then they come for female. What exclusive word denotes the sex that is designed to provide the large gamete in sexual reproduction or are we to be denied one because transwomen can't let women have anything that doesn't include them?
Do you consider Alex Drummond as shown in the photo Doodledog posted to be as much a woman as yourself and your transgender friend? It would be good if you could answer.

I agree that conflating LGB people (and people of colour) with TRAs is either misguided or disingenuous. Yes, LGB people have suffered discrimination in the past (and some still do in many countries) but as Molly says, that was simply because of their sexual preferences, which have nothing to do with gender.

LGB people, particularly lesbians, suffer discrimination and victimisation from TRAs - how does that fit with the 'most marginalised' narrative? Many LGB people want to disassociate themselves from the 'T' in LGBT, as it is suggesting similarities that are not there.

Saying that self-id allows sex offenders to disguise themselves as women to get access to victims is not the same as saying that gay people are predators. Saying that men entering women's races is unfair is not the same as homophobia, which is simply based on a dislike of gay sexual preferences. Wanting single-sex spaces is not the same as saying that gay men and women should not use the spaces designed for their own sex!

Your point that this award is given by a group that accepts the winner is valid, but the fact that these awards are given at all is troubling for some of us. I exaggerate to make the point, but how would people feel about an award for serial killer of the year? I repeat, for the benefit of those who struggle with analogies, that this is not to suggest that transpeople are serial killers (sorry, but failure to understand how analogies work has derailed discussions before), but to reward someone for furthering a cause that is detrimental to women doesn't sit right for a lot of people.

I have no doubt that your friend, like many transpeople, is a valuable member of society who poses no threat to anyone, and I wish her well. My issue is not with people like that, but with those who want to deny women single-sex spaces (and they were listed a few posts up if you missed it) where they would be safe if male-bodied people were not routinely allowed to enter.

Rosie51

Glorianny the award winner described themselves having won a female award. So having appropriated the word woman to encompass males, now female can encompass males too? Is there a word that denotes that sex which is designed to provide the large gamete within sexual reproduction, a binary throughout nature?
No matter how many times I ask this, nobody ever answers. I have to wonder why the avoidance.........
My objection was entirely about the appropriation of the word female. It is telling though that any award of this type invariably goes to a transwoman, never a natal woman. And if the category is non-binary it's invariably a non-binary male that wins, not a non-binary female. In the men's awards, guess who always wins....yep a man never a transman. But no it's not a men's rights movement, it's just coincidence.....

The award winner can describe herself in anyway she wishes, it's called free speech. You are quite entitled to disagree with her. What you are not entitled to do is to denigrate the criteria set for the award, the women's beliefs who established the award or their decision about who got it. It is their decision not yours.
Unless you have real evidence of all the other allegations you make (and of course you don't) that is just pure conjecture.

You may not like the award, you may disagree with the winner's concept of female, but tying that into a men's rights movement is a bit of a stretch. What you are in fact saying is that wanting to be treated as a woman somehow extends male rights and is only done for nefarious reasons.
Why then do we have transmen? What possible advantage is there in that?

G&T
Why then do we have transmen?

What possible advantage is there in that?

Do transmen choose to be that for an advantage like the TW under discussion do?

NB G&T says she won’t answer me, so I’m not expecting a response, but I’ll ask anyway.

Do tell us why you’ve raised that point?

Is it because no one complains that transmen infiltrate spaces where they shouldn’t be by pretending they are something they are not?

Is it because trans-men don’t demonstrate their femaleness in male toilets?
I wonder who would be on the receiving end of the threat or the violence if they did that. Hmmm.

Is it because trans-men don’t choose to cheat and lie to enter male competitions because that’s the only way they can win?

Is it because transmen don’t rely on violent and raucous TRA to support them in their determination to get what they want?

I could understand being a transman if it bought me equal pay with men. Do TW immediately accept the lower pay and status that females face?

Your point that this award is given by a group that accepts the winner is valid, but the fact that these awards are given at all is troubling for some of us. I exaggerate to make the point, but how would people feel about an award for serial killer of the year? I repeat, for the benefit of those who struggle with analogies, that this is not to suggest that transpeople are serial killers (sorry, but failure to understand how analogies work has derailed discussions before), but to reward someone for furthering a cause that is detrimental to women doesn't sit right for a lot of people
It is amazing how the only recourse on this thread seems to be the concept of murder or killings to support ideas. I strongly object to being told that the concept that transwomen are women is in anyway detrimental to any women natal or trans.
The concept that transwomen are different, are easily identifiable and can (and should) be removed from women's spaces is completely harmful. It results in women having to show in some way that they are 'real' women, in the persecution of women who look different, and in discrimination based on physical appearance.
So not only are women being told they have no right to give an award based on their own beliefs they are now being told in doing so they are harming other women using an analogy of supporting a serial killer. Really??!!

G&T
I strongly object to being told that the concept that transwomen are women is in anyway detrimental to any women natal or trans.
You have that right. As all those who think you are wrong have the right to say so.
Transwomen are not women. If they were, there would be no need for a qualifier.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny the award winner described themselves having won a female award. So having appropriated the word woman to encompass males, now female can encompass males too? Is there a word that denotes that sex which is designed to provide the large gamete within sexual reproduction, a binary throughout nature?
No matter how many times I ask this, nobody ever answers. I have to wonder why the avoidance.........
My objection was entirely about the appropriation of the word female. It is telling though that any award of this type invariably goes to a transwoman, never a natal woman. And if the category is non-binary it's invariably a non-binary male that wins, not a non-binary female. In the men's awards, guess who always wins....yep a man never a transman. But no it's not a men's rights movement, it's just coincidence.....

The award winner can describe herself in anyway she wishes, it's called free speech. You are quite entitled to disagree with her. What you are not entitled to do is to denigrate the criteria set for the award, the women's beliefs who established the award or their decision about who got it. It is their decision not yours.
Unless you have real evidence of all the other allegations you make (and of course you don't) that is just pure conjecture.

You may not like the award, you may disagree with the winner's concept of female, but tying that into a men's rights movement is a bit of a stretch. What you are in fact saying is that wanting to be treated as a woman somehow extends male rights and is only done for nefarious reasons.
Why then do we have transmen? What possible advantage is there in that?

I didn't denigrate the criteria for the award, I objected to the misappropriation of the word female by the winner. First it was woman, now it's female. If female now includes males it becomes useless as a descriptor. You know this is deliberately done to push the boundaries that bit further. Words have meanings. If any word can mean what any individual wants then they become meaningless and meaningful communication is impossible. I'll ask you once again, what is the word that exclusively describes the sex in all mammals which is designed to provide the large gamete in sexual reproduction? You never answer this question, and I'm left wondering why?

We have transmen because some women want to opt out of their sex. They can't of course, they remain female, but are quite free to present as stereotypical men. What possible advantage is there in that? I suppose the advantage is in feeling happier in themselves. I'm surprised you can't see that. Nobody is saying all transwomen transition for nefarious reasons, surely most just want to live their lives quietly like anyone else? Those that march with placards inviting women to suck their girl dick are exhibiting their male behaviours. You don't see transmen marching with placards inviting people to suck their boy vulvas do you?

Excellent post, Rosie.

Oh dear the only response as usul is rant about dicks.
Still we can rely on Humpty Dumpty
When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

So much dictatorial nonsense about who can be what and who can think what. You cannot and should not try to control the thoughts and body choices of individuals unless they are actually damaging others

Still can't answer what is the word that exclusively describes the sex in all mammals which is designed to provide the large gamete in sexual reproduction? of course not, as to be honest and give the answer would destroy your argument.

The old Humpty Dumpty quote, I've used that myself, but don't forget Through the Looking Glass is a work of fantasy fiction not real life 🤣

I'd have expected a former teacher to have a better command of language than to call two sentences stating facts a "rant" but there you go, or are you disputing the factual content?

There's far more dictatorial nonsense in the compelled speech of referring to obvious males as she/ her. As you love a literary quote I'll give you The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. Fiction again but incredibly insightful.

No 'ranting about dicks' that I cans - just a mention of placards waved by TRAs that show how necessary safe spaces are.

Undermining women who point this out is something of a low blow, surely?

Thanks Doodledog

I meant to add in response to You cannot and should not try to control the thoughts and body choices of individuals unless they are actually damaging others I don't try to control anybody's thoughts or body choices, why would I? I do object to men putting themselves into the female category and that does damage real women. When we lose the exclusive language that describes us, we lose control of our situations.

Ali23

These threads are always biased. It makes me so sad. They won the award for being a LGBTQIA+champion therefore it was not pertinent which gender they were themselves.

50 years ago would you all have been harping about black rights activists?

I hope and pray that you can open your hearts and minds just a little bit.

Nope. One was for equal rights, the other about a man dominating women's sports. Not even the same. Said this to my DG, unequal rights for woman. That is not ok for many, she was seemed to be unaware that it will happen if this continues. So brainwashed has she been.

Freya5

Ali23

These threads are always biased. It makes me so sad. They won the award for being a LGBTQIA+champion therefore it was not pertinent which gender they were themselves.

50 years ago would you all have been harping about black rights activists?

I hope and pray that you can open your hearts and minds just a little bit.

Nope. One was for equal rights, the other about a man dominating women's sports. Not even the same. Said this to my DG, unequal rights for woman. That is not ok for many, she was seemed to be unaware that it will happen if this continues. So brainwashed has she been.

So all women who now consider transwomen are women are "brainwashed" as well. Honestly the denigration of women by people, who say they only object to transwomen who don't conform to their requirements, is incredible.
There are so many of us who don't think or behave the right way. Discrimination of course never stops with one section of society it always extends to others.

Glorianny

Freya5

Ali23

These threads are always biased. It makes me so sad. They won the award for being a LGBTQIA+champion therefore it was not pertinent which gender they were themselves.

50 years ago would you all have been harping about black rights activists?

I hope and pray that you can open your hearts and minds just a little bit.

Nope. One was for equal rights, the other about a man dominating women's sports. Not even the same. Said this to my DG, unequal rights for woman. That is not ok for many, she was seemed to be unaware that it will happen if this continues. So brainwashed has she been.

So all women who now consider transwomen are women are "brainwashed" as well. Honestly the denigration of women by people, who say they only object to transwomen who don't conform to their requirements, is incredible.
There are so many of us who don't think or behave the right way. Discrimination of course never stops with one section of society it always extends to others.

So all women who now consider transwomen are women are "brainwashed" as well

Twisting words. No-one said that.

They objected to the term Female being used.

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Freya5

Ali23

These threads are always biased. It makes me so sad. They won the award for being a LGBTQIA+champion therefore it was not pertinent which gender they were themselves.

50 years ago would you all have been harping about black rights activists?

I hope and pray that you can open your hearts and minds just a little bit.

Nope. One was for equal rights, the other about a man dominating women's sports. Not even the same. Said this to my DG, unequal rights for woman. That is not ok for many, she was seemed to be unaware that it will happen if this continues. So brainwashed has she been.

So all women who now consider transwomen are women are "brainwashed" as well. Honestly the denigration of women by people, who say they only object to transwomen who don't conform to their requirements, is incredible.
There are so many of us who don't think or behave the right way. Discrimination of course never stops with one section of society it always extends to others.

So all women who now consider transwomen are women are "brainwashed" as well

Twisting words. No-one said that.

They objected to the term Female being used.

Then why not simply say that?
That wasn't even the OP. which accused the transwoman of cheating, quite how has never been explained.

Callistemon it's par for the course. Come back and twist some words for deflection, hoping nobody notices she hasn't addressed any questions of fact. Point out the truth about the placards in two sentences and you're accused of "ranting". Ask if there's a word that exclusively denotes the sex in all mammals that is designed to provide the large gamete (multiple times) and it will be ignored because to answer that question honestly would demolish their argument.

I don't know what these safe places are. I keep asking about them but no answers the question. Please can someone tell me.

Safe places are single sex places where women are in a vulnerable state and should be safe and able to maintain privacy and dignity away from men, no matter how those men identify. Areas where women are in a state of undress, or vulnerability eg when in a women's refuge, on a hospital ward. These areas and others have been detailed on many other threads, are you truly saying you've never read a thread on trans issues versus women's rights before?

Incidentally you haven't answered questions put to you. I'll repeat just two of mine here
What exclusive word denotes the sex that is designed to provide the large gamete in sexual reproduction or are we to be denied one because transwomen can't let women have anything that doesn't include them?
Do you consider Alex Drummond as shown in the photo Doodledog posted to be as much a woman as yourself and your transgender friend? It would be good if you could answer.

My niece is a bi-sexual cis woman. Her partner is a transgender woman. They don't think I'm insulting any part of the LGBTQ+ community when I speak about sexual orientation/transgender discrimination. If there are any members of the LGBTQ+ community on this thread who disagree with me then please let me know either on the thread or via PM so that you can tell me how I have offended you and, if necessary, I will apologise. If you are a cis woman and disagree with me then you are entitled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine. I suggest that we let history be the judge, as it was to homophobia.

vampirequeen

I don't know what these safe places are. I keep asking about them but no answers the question. Please can someone tell me.

I answered upthread as soon as you asked the first time. Did you miss it? I've done the trawling for you, and here is the part of my post that covered it:

Female spaces are places where women have traditionally gone to be away from men - usually because we are vulnerable. Changing rooms, loos, hospital wards, DV refuges, that sort of thing. They also allow women from religions that don't allow the mixing of sexes to have lives outside of the home.

Before you point out that a rampant attacker can barge into any of those places, of course you are right. But not without drawing attention to himself. Now that men (with or without much effort to look female) have a right to be there, it is so much more likely that they will go, which they do. There are numerous reports of attacks and salacious behaviour - I linked to a vide of one and the same post as I showed the bearded transwoman and explained about the spaces.

A friend of mine was seriously sexually assaulted in the Ladies when we were students. It was because someone had seen a man go in there that security was alerted before she was killed. A transwoman would not be so noticeable, and even the bearded bloke from the photo would just say that he identifies as female and it would be a brave bouncer who stopped him. Safe/single sex spaces matter.

vampirequeen

My niece is a bi-sexual cis woman. Her partner is a transgender woman. They don't think I'm insulting any part of the LGBTQ+ community when I speak about sexual orientation/transgender discrimination. If there are any members of the LGBTQ+ community on this thread who disagree with me then please let me know either on the thread or via PM so that you can tell me how I have offended you and, if necessary, I will apologise. If you are a cis woman and disagree with me then you are entitled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine. I suggest that we let history be the judge, as it was to homophobia.

I'm not following the prompt for your post. You'll find there are a lot of us on GN who find the term "cis" highly offensive! It attempts to make us a subsection of our own sex, which we most certainly aren't.
I wonder if you'll address the questions I've posed to you?

vampirequeen

My niece is a bi-sexual cis woman. Her partner is a transgender woman. They don't think I'm insulting any part of the LGBTQ+ community when I speak about sexual orientation/transgender discrimination. If there are any members of the LGBTQ+ community on this thread who disagree with me then please let me know either on the thread or via PM so that you can tell me how I have offended you and, if necessary, I will apologise. If you are a cis woman and disagree with me then you are entitled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine. I suggest that we let history be the judge, as it was to homophobia.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion - nobody has said otherwise. The fact that people may not wish to discuss their private life online does not mean that they are not part of any number of communities, however, and if someone does come along and say 'I am a lesbian who loves transpeople' or 'I have been gay all my life and wish to disassociate myself from the 'T' in LDBT', what would that prove? Anyone can claim to 'tick all the boxes' (and some do just that) in the hope that it lends more weight to their arguments. It doesn't.

VQ, I can’t believe that any educated person doesn’t know, but if you don’t. . .
Places that are supposed to be safe for females to use without the fear of male presence. So
1. women’s refuges -from domestic violence or coercion. Should be male free whether or not the males are TW.

If TW want a refuge from domestic violence then they and their TRA groupies should campaign for them, not invade female spaces.

2. Female toilets. G&T & others assure me that TW have been using female toilets for ages.
So what, you may ask, gave rise to the need for them to be male free?
The answer is the actions of those TW who make it quite clear that they are male and use access to intimidate females, adult and girls. They like to take selfies proving that they are in female toilets and post them on SM with captions like that “You can’t stop me!”
What normal person does that?

3. Female changing rooms, whether in shops or at sports facilities. Since the males or TW who have been able to be identified as male, doing things they shouldn’t be doing or making it clear that they are male, using female changing rooms, there’s your answer.
4. Hospital or clinic sessions for intimate care where a female has been specifically requested, for whatever reason.*
What possible right does a male have to falsely present himself as female because he feels like a woman?

Have to leave this for now as we have visitors, but as a teacher, I’m always willing to educate -even about something as easy as this.