Charitable status and private schools

So what will be done with the perpetually disruptive children and those who don’t have the ability to keep up, thereby holding back the brightest?

GrannyGravy13

Not all fee paying schools are elite some are just have fewer pupils than state schools with smaller classes.

With five children we used both state and fee paying schools along with tutors when necessary.

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

While some people can afford to pay for a better education for their children there is no chance of every child in this country having an equal opportunity education wise. People will make sure that every school is a good school because they’ll have to.

Sago

As soon as the word “posh” is used, I lose interest.

That makes two of us Sago.
Sigh

Seems so to me too Aveline.

I still don't understand how people who's children go to private schools are somehow subsidised by those who don't. Surely it's the other way around. Private school parents pay their taxes which cover public sector schools yet their children don't take up spaces in them. Hence they pay twice.

I admit to enjoying instant coffee.

As soon as the word “posh” is used, I lose interest.

There was a time when I drank instant, and remember offering someone or other a cup of coffee in the office, and met with a "I never drink instant" I suppressed a splutter and a shocked face! Now that's me I'm afraid I just don't like instant anymore, haven't for a few years. I subscribe to "have a couple of coffees a day and make sure they're good ones!" just a preference really not a judgement on anyone else.

I know you think it’s inferior Dinahmo.
I just think you can’t judge a person by the coffee they drink.

MaizieD

^To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.^

I can't help feeling that if the private and the state sector were on the same financial footing with regard to expenditure per pupil, the private sector might well wither away.

As it is, while there are many very good state schools, one cannot blame parents who feel that, if the local state provision is poor, if they can afford it, it is in their child's interest to pay for private education.

However, I can't help feeling that there is more to state v. private education than just the quality of education offered. There is an elitist element to private education which goes back perhaps for centuries, where the long established private schools provide more than just an education, they offer a network of privilege and easy access to the 'top' jobs by being part of a certain social grouping to recipients who may be no more meretricious than state educated individuals.

Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. Just 7% of British people are privately educated, compared to two-fifths (39%) of those in top positions.

www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

I'm sorry. 'meretricious' was entirely the wrong word (I was suspicious as I wrote it..) I meant 'no more merit than'

maddyone

Drinking instant coffee doesn’t appear to me to be a sign of people not being posh, whatever posh is! All kinds of people drink instant coffee. It’s not a status symbol to drink coffee that’s not instant.

The point is that two women were drinking cafetiere coffee and my DH was offered instant - a sign that in some way they thought he was inferior to them. That's not saying that instant coffee is inferior (although I happen to think it is, saying it now)

Not for profit seems reasonable, Lizzie. My source quotes 3% by the way, for what it's worth.

There are many myths about the Finish system, good though it appears to be. One I have never heard is that it is better "because private education is banned". The biggest difference is their attitude to the individual child and the amount of money poured into it.

As I said, not for profit seems reasonable, no choice does not.

My convent senior school, was ostensibly a private school which took a mix of fee payers mainly protestant and non fee paying catholic pupils from the feeder junior school. The parish had some tacit agreement where funds went into the school to subsidise our education in case we were tempted to go to a non denominational heathen educational establishment, but boy did the nuns let us know (us the non fee payers) were there under sufferance. Although quite why anyone would pay for what was to all intents and purposes a "naice" uniform, complete with straw boater hat in the summer and not a lot of substance educationally I don't know At least at my children's comprehensive senior school they were encouraged to have some independent thought, I particularly remember an essay they had to to on "the difference between a fact and an opinion" which really hit home to me at the time we were imbued only with opinions that were set in stone and debate was out of the question.

Discussions that come up within the family when reminiscing about schools, we all had different experiences, me with my woeful private convent school, husband with his excellent grammar school which he looks back on as a fine establishment equal to any public school and all four children going through the state comprehensive system which they would say in retrospect had pluses and minuses. Pluses being a leveller they mixed with everyone from the very well off, yes they don't all choose private to children from impoverished back -grounds and they think that did them a lot of good. One of my son's girlfriend went to a very expensive public school and as with the daughter of a close friend their experience of mixing with other social classes, for want of a better description is limited. The minuses they, our children would all say is the amount of low level disruption that went on that ate into the lesson time, the lack of specialised teachers, the lack of male teachers which my sons really lamented on but that improved when they went to six form college. The teaching of maths, mine went to quite a good performing state comprehensive, four into Oxbridge from one son's year, nevertheless everyone but everyone, except the most able, had private tuition for maths to get them through GCSE from around year 10, bearing in mind that a pass in that subject was a minimum requirement for university.

My husband's eldest child, buggered about at school got kicked out during A levels, went off labouring for three weeks realised he didn't like it, grovelled to go back into school, knuckled down got into university, qualified as a lawyer, when he was at the College of Law, after university taking the requisite exams he often amused us by saying "I'm the only one here who went through the state system and they've all got trust funds" Another one of my husband's grown up grand children is now a barrister said the same thing about peer group when taking bar exams, hardly anyone from state school.

I don't know how I feel about private schools, in an ideal world they wouldn't exist but we all know that "some" state schools are awful, I think there should be a choice but it is a bitter pill to swallow knowing that the private sector represents only 7% I think, and will go on to take some of the most lucrative top positions in the working world. I remember having a conversation with one of the mums I knew from school, her son got into Cambridge and she was saying, initially how unprepared he felt when he was rubbing shoulders with those who were possibly 3rd or 4th generation under graduates at that university, but further down the line, it did occur that so many had been hot housed through school, there is an element of sometimes "they're now on their own" which can pay dividends having gone through the state system when you suffer from no such illusions. Going back a few years now early noughties I know the balance has evened out somewhat between the state and private intake, it is far harder to get into a top university from the state sector.

Further to your post Grany, Yanas Varoufakis is always someone I find worth listening to, agree with his comments re. not a lot to choose from between Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak. Only the US has a worse choice imo between Trump and Biden !

Funny you mention "posh" in relation to private school, Michael Palin said only yesterday, "I think probably the main misconception is that it turns everybody into snobs".

I don't know what coffee Palin drinks, but I remember he once said that his mugs had to have memorable artwork on them. Is that posh?

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

I can't help feeling that if the private and the state sector were on the same financial footing with regard to expenditure per pupil, the private sector might well wither away.

As it is, while there are many very good state schools, one cannot blame parents who feel that, if the local state provision is poor, if they can afford it, it is in their child's interest to pay for private education.

However, I can't help feeling that there is more to state v. private education than just the quality of education offered. There is an elitist element to private education which goes back perhaps for centuries, where the long established private schools provide more than just an education, they offer a network of privilege and easy access to the 'top' jobs by being part of a certain social grouping to recipients who may be no more meretricious than state educated individuals.

Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. Just 7% of British people are privately educated, compared to two-fifths (39%) of those in top positions.

www.gov.uk/government/news/elitism-in-britain-2019

I put my two children through private school. We were NOT rich we struggled to pay fees at times and did without other things in order to do so. I had two very bright children and the youngest was horrendously bullied by older boys . They both went to state primary school but after the bullying and the local comp being so dire we changed to the private sector and I never regretted it. It was how I chose to spend my money my friends who said I was “lucky” to do so had two new cars and 3 holidays a year. We did not.

I agree state schools should be improved but my children and grandchildren going to private school releases more space in state provision for others and I pay taxes like everyone else.

It will be difficult for my daughter if vat goes on fees . Labour had not said it will backtrack on that , charitable status will make little difference

We’re the other way round GrannyGravy, I prefer instant coffee whilst my husband prefers ground coffee.

GrannyGravy13

Not all fee paying schools are elite some are just have fewer pupils than state schools with smaller classes.

With five children we used both state and fee paying schools along with tutors when necessary.

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

I absolutely agree with this GrannyGravy.
We also used both state and independent schools for all three of our children. We also used a private tutor for one of the children.

Perhaps Harvey Nichols, Fortnum and Masons, Harrods, all designer shops and goods, and coffee that’s not instant should be prohibited because not everyone can afford them.

maddyone

Drinking instant coffee doesn’t appear to me to be a sign of people not being posh, whatever posh is! All kinds of people drink instant coffee. It’s not a status symbol to drink coffee that’s not instant.

My DH likes instant coffee so that is what he drinks, I dislike instant and do not drink it, which leaves me the coffee machine win win.

Drinking instant coffee doesn’t appear to me to be a sign of people not being posh, whatever posh is! All kinds of people drink instant coffee. It’s not a status symbol to drink coffee that’s not instant.

Freya5

I'm pleased about this. My non rich inlaws put their child into a private school, because the state school was c... . Bullying rife, no help, so out they came and what a difference. Massive improvement in confidence, and excellent GCSE results. Choice is paramount. Their sacrifice worth it. Let's not bring everything down to the lowest, let's up the state schools game.

We did exactly the same for our eldest many years ago. They say it was the best thing that ever happened to them.
I felt guilty at first and talked endlessly about it to my Socialist father who said go for it they had been planning to do the same for me if I had not passed my 11+. He even contributed to the fees saying happiness and achievement before political principals .
The choice has to be there and the State schools need a big injection of money to allow them to bring their standards up
Leveling down to a common denominator helps no one.

s

Not all fee paying schools are elite some are just have fewer pupils than state schools with smaller classes.

With five children we used both state and fee paying schools along with tutors when necessary.

To abolish the private sector because not all can afford it is like saying close Fortnum & Masons, Harvey Nichols etc as not all of the population can afford to shop there.

Nannashirlz

Rich ppl aren’t posh they just have a bit more money than most of us. You should never judge a person by their personal choices. My granddaughter goes to a private school the local school is absolutely shocking and she is so advanced for age. military families get 90 percent paid for from the military. My granddaughter is no longer part of the military family her parents now pay for her. Yes she got some posh friends with very big houses but they don’t treat my son and his wife any differently.

How do you/they know that they are treated in the same way as the posh people treat their friends?

A very minor example of how so called posh people treat others. My DH visited a large house in Suffolk purchased by a couple moving out from London. He went to look at some furniture that need restoring. The "lady" of the house was sitting with a friend with a large pot of coffee in front of them. When asked if he would like a cup the woman took a jar of instant coffee and made him a mug. If that had been me I would have said no thanks, I don't drink instant. He was too polite but I don't think he drank it. The only instant coffee in our house is a small packet of espresso powder which I use sometimes in cooking.

Aveline

How are they subsidising private schools? Parents are paying taxes and their children not taking up places in public schools.

I don't have the time to do the maths but apparently only 7% of pupils go to private schools which means that 93% go to state schools. Ergo the taxes paid by the parents of that 93% are contributing, perhaps in a small way, to the education of the 7%.

Yes DaisyAnne I missed that. However, only 2% of pupils in Finland attend private schools, and private schools are not allowed to make profit:

Reetta Niinimäki, assistant attaché at the Finnish embassy in Spain, explained to AFP Factual: "Private education is not prohibited in Finland, but for-profit basic education is . "
A very different system from the divisive, class-riddled one operating in the UK, I believe.