Charitable status and private schools

People don't always get to hear about the partnerships between independent schools and state schools.
Like:
Inviting pupils to attend lessons and workshops
Hosting joint drama and music events
Inviting pupils to attend performances, concerts and assemblies
Having members of staff serving as governors at state schools
Hosting exams like LAMDA

just a few, without even mentioning sports and academic partnerships.

The Government of the day regardless of its colour can improve state school standards whilst leaving fee paying schools alone.

Fail to understand why a large public school near me has charitable status. Its assets, land and properties must run into billions. I have never heard of them doing anything charitable in adjacent poorer boroughs.

DaisyAnneReturns

It us already the case that charities are not exempt, because of their charity status, from paying VAT. They can claim various reliefs and concessions, however.

Independent schools are exempt from the requirement to charge VAT on school fees because the provision of education by an 'eligible body' is an 'exempt' supply for VAT purposes under current VAT legislation. This legislation covers private tuition, Univerities, etc.

It seems to me that Starmer has and is carrying out due diligence on this, while, in the press and social media, prejudice, as always, often overrides thruth.

This is true. VAT is not payable on educational services and goods. It was EU law and could be changed but Starmer has said he wants to stay in line with EU law. In any case it would still be complicated applying VAT to private school fees and not any other kind of educational provision eg private tutoring.

Germanshepherdsmum

Utopia Cossy. It isn’t going to happen, whatever the colour of the government.

One person’s Utopia is somebody else’s Dystopia as far as education is concerned.
One challenge which isn’t often mentioned is the disparity between different state schools. Birds of a feather flock together in the state system, so some schools attract the best teachers, have very successful fund raising, high levels of parent engagement, excellent academic results, etc.etc. - and others don’t. That’s probably a very hard nut to crack too, it’s not just private schools which are ‘elite’.

I've never quite understood why some parents take on additional jobs in order to pay school fees. I realise that they want their children to get the best out of life but that can be achieved in other ways. I would have thought that spending money on cultural activities or foreign travel or theatre outings would broaden a child's horizons.

ronib

Dinahmo yes parents would be charged income taxes on the benefit and presumably it could be divided into two in the case of a two parent family?

Depends whether both parents are employed (even directors re employees) by the company.

Utopia Cossy. It isn’t going to happen, whatever the colour of the government.

Remember Ton Blair winning an election on Education Education band wagon and it was disaster. Looks like Starmer will hit those parents working hard to pay for their children's education. Obviously it would be better if the state could provide the same level of education and facilities as the private sector but realistically this is not possible. Most private schools have scholarships, which hopefully children benefit from so the charity status is justified. There is no way schools could cope wit the extra numbers if a lot of parents are forced to put their children into the state system. some of my GC go to private schools - parents are not rich but children have needs that could not be met in the state system. Wish I could have afforded to put my children into private schools when they were younger.

Dinahmo yes parents would be charged income taxes on the benefit and presumably it could be divided into two in the case of a two parent family?

ronib

And LizzieDrip parents with their own companies might be able to pay school fees through their company and reclaim 20 percent VAT so interesting times ahead.
After all the State pays for children of diplomats etc to be educated at boarding schools so can’t see why creative accountants can’t dream up new schemes for companies…. particularly where parents are employed overseas.

If they did that they would be charged income tax on the benefit.

ronib

MaizieD but then of course all VAT registered businesses are able to recover the VAT which they have paid … so I guess there might be some careful calculations to be made. There might be a profit to the public schools under this new accounting system ?

The way VAT works is for the input tax (reclaimed from purchases etc) to be deducted from the output tax (charged on sales/fees) and the difference paid over to C & E or reclaimed. If a VAT registered business is viable then the normal outcome is for C & E to receive some money. In normal circumstances if there is a VAT refund it is usually because a large purchase has been, such as equipment.

ALL fee paying independent schools ARE elite, some are far more elite than others, but the point is Mr&Mrs Average could not afford to educate their children privately, especially at Secondary Level, it’s not just the fees, it’s also all the extras plus uniform and school trips. We are an elitist country still and still have a class and income divide. As I said earlier I have experience of the independent school system between the ages of 3-13 as my son attended, with the help of a scholarship and my parents, a very nice prep school, the advantages were clear to see, much smaller classes, average of 12-14, much nicer facilities, more advantages to take part in great extra curriculum activities, great school trips and on the whole 60% of both pupils and parents, were great people, however having money doesn’t equate with “posh” or “class” or “manners” and the one-upmanship was hilarious and some pupils were just spoilt brats. Many were absolutely lovely though and parents were very good to my son as I worked full time and they all rallied round for the school run. It’s just sad that our state schools are run into the ground, and my daughter currently teaches a reception class of 34 children, it’s simply not a level playing field, which frankly it should be, all schools should offer all children the same chances irrespective of their parents/grandparents incomes

DAR, I said ‘what they believe to be the best education’.

The most expensive private schools have now priced themselves out of the domestic market (apart from bankers) and are filling up with the children of rich foreigners. Would another £10,000 on top of the £50,000 they are paying now deter them? I don't think so.
Whereas another £3,200 on top of £16,000 for a day school might look prohibitive for some families, particularly for two or more children.
I think most comprehensive schools would be delighted to have more pupils from supportive homes where education is considered to be important. The state sector would be enriched.

Grantanow

Germanshepherdsmum

They may be working several jobs to achieve that excess Grantanow - just to give their child what they believe to be the best education, having maybe received little education themselves,

Yes, working several jobs does occur in my experience but that may have a long term effect on mental health, the capacity to parent adequately in early years and on the marriage. Moreover, when sufficient excess income cannot be generated for all children in a family to attend fee-paying schools the choice as to who gets the better education is a morally difficult one.

Better education? Surely it is the best education for the particular child? That may or may not include paying for all sorts of additional support.

I agree Germanshepherdsmum that sending all the children to the state school is the right thing to do if the money won't stretch far enough. Too often a fee-paying choice was made in favour of sons. But it would all be morally straightforward if all children could attend high quality, properly funded state education.

And of course it’s their choice Grantanow, not something they have to do. I’m not suggesting that working several jobs to give your child a private education is a good thing, but it’s what some choose to do. If they have several children, and can’t afford to send them all to an independent school, then I think it’s better that they all have a state education rather than instil divisions and feelings of being second best.

You're right, it's all a balancing act Grantanow, but independent schools do go out of their way to help busy working parents - providing school pick up transport in the form of mini buses, excellent nutritional meals including early breakfasts, after school clubs etc. The parent does therefore find time to enjoy their child.
There are discounts, though not huge, for 2nd and 3rd siblings in the school.

Grantanow

If they have an 'excess', of course.

Indeed.

Amount parents save, don't spend, earn extra is all part to excess.

Germanshepherdsmum

They may be working several jobs to achieve that excess Grantanow - just to give their child what they believe to be the best education, having maybe received little education themselves,

Yes, working several jobs does occur in my experience but that may have a long term effect on mental health, the capacity to parent adequately in early years and on the marriage. Moreover, when sufficient excess income cannot be generated for all children in a family to attend fee-paying schools the choice as to who gets the better education is a morally difficult one.

When the fully costed plans appear, I shall be one of the first to read them. When …. If ….
We owe it to our grandchildren to make sure there’s some future for them. I don’t care who delivers it.

There’s not going to be anything yet ronib. The historical context shows that Labour are no less competent than the Tories at managing the economy, but if you’re not interested in that it’s unlikely that anything Labour produce detailing their plans would convince you, is it now?

Casdon I am interested in next steps. Fully costed. Transparent and fair. Not some historical rehash of past government decisions.

And IF IF Starmer succeeds in getting us to rejoin the EU, then VAT cannot be applied to education anyway. He would have to unravel all he put in place.
(Though I'm sort of sorry we left, I don't think that re joining is likely).