Charitable status and private schools

Callistemon21

DaisyAnneReturns

LizzieDrip

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so. Childcare, on the other hand, is not elitist - it is a necessity for many.

But we are not a communist country LizzieDrip. The vast majority believe in a mixed economy and, as of today, we are dtill a democracy.

There is much elititism in a communist regime.

There is in any extreme Callistemon even extreme Greens would create there own aristocracy.

I'm not too keen to compare the two sectors, state and private, because they are so different.
Currently, however, nearly three in ten pupils joining the independent sector came from state schools. They choose to move because they find the state system lacking. IF this movement between the sectors can be stemmed under a Labour government, then that would be very impressive.
But I wouldn't hold my breath, I don't think it's likely.

DaisyAnneReturns

LizzieDrip

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so. Childcare, on the other hand, is not elitist - it is a necessity for many.

But we are not a communist country LizzieDrip. The vast majority believe in a mixed economy and, as of today, we are dtill a democracy.

There is much elititism in a communist regime.

Education is one of our biggest markets.

The UK Education Market was estimated at USD 280 billion in 2022 and is anticipated to reach around USD 510 billion by 2032, growing at a CAGR of roughly 15% between 2023 and 2032.

It is tedious but… seems to me that in recent times, there has been a massive increase in the super rich as a group who are very well placed to pay an extra 20 percent on fees. Water off a duck’s back.

I am struggling with the demise of the solid middle classes who might want private education but now will be unable to buy it.

So we have a thriving boarding public sector now educating more children from abroad than from the UK or potentially so. I suppose this makes sense to Labour politicians but at the moment, it does not tally with me.

LizzieDrip

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so. Childcare, on the other hand, is not elitist - it is a necessity for many.

But we are not a communist country LizzieDrip. The vast majority believe in a mixed economy and, as of today, we are dtill a democracy.

LizzieDrip

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves.

There is indeed and the *better state schools in the better areas, even though the same formula for funding exists, are where the better off parents manage to send their children.
We don’t seem to be able to do anything about that, which has far more impact than fee paying schools.
Would withdrawing charitable status or charging extra VAT make any difference to state schools or would it just make people who can’t afford private education feel better?

They are, Callistemon.

People who send their children to independent schools are not getting a tax break. Not all goods and services that we purchase are subject to VAT; that doesn’t mean we’re getting a tax break. Perhaps the rate of VAT on houses should be increased from 0% if the house is over a certain price, because to be able to afford it you have to be one of the perceived ‘elite’ and it’s unfair on those who can’t afford it?

Germanshepherdsmum

Why is it the fair thing to do?

What next - VAT on university fees and nursery fees? And if not, why not?

X post

It's nothing to do with the actual idea of VAT on school fees, posts like that about supposed elitism are just about the politics of envy.

LizzieDrip

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so. Childcare, on the other hand, is not elitist - it is a necessity for many.

If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so
They're not exempt from paying that part of their income tax which goes towards State education.
Nor should they be of course.

You could say that university fees should be subject to VAT as well then, especially for overseas students.
Not everyone can go to university.

IMO it is the fair thing to do because I believe private education is elitist - that is my opinion. There is a state education system, of which everyone can avail themselves. If they choose not to, that’s their choice, but I don’t see why they deserve a tax break for doing so. Childcare, on the other hand, is not elitist - it is a necessity for many.

Indeed Callistemon. The logical extension of fairness.

Germanshepherdsmum

Why is it the fair thing to do?

What next - VAT on university fees and nursery fees? And if not, why not?

Children's clothes and school uniforms.
Oh, I forgot, if your child needs clothes/uniforms sized at age 14 or over (even if they are only 11), they are subject to VAT.

Why is it the fair thing to do?

What next - VAT on university fees and nursery fees? And if not, why not?

Yes Joseann we’ll have to see. Perhaps some of those parents will have enough of a social conscience to acknowledge that paying VAT on school fees is the fair thing to do - just as other businesses have to pay VAT. I don’t think the Labour Party will (nor should) pander to the minority in marginal constituencies just to get votes - a fair society for all is surely better for everyone.

I’m all in favour of any government who will improve all state schools, so that improvements in state schools don’t just happen in places where the better off parents send their children. Or where extra equipment isn’t more frequently seen in schools where the PTA is supported by more affluent parents in the state system.

I’m just querying /asking for viable evidence about whether the removal of charitable status for private schools will achieve that.

Perhaps many of those numbers you cite Joseann would not be voting Labour anyway.
I'm not sure LizzieDrip. I'm from a very marginal London Conservative constituency (Iain DS's), where 1200 currently disillusioned Tory voters like myself could easily switch to being persuaded to vote for a different party. However, we have 5 private schools in our constituency, so my guess is, that IDS's majority will now actually increase. Another missed opportunity for Labour to get a foothold. The same in Wimbledon, Carshalton, Kensington, Cheltenham etc where the majority is tiny, but where private schools are thick on the ground.
We'll have to see.

pennyhapenny Of course they don't get any VAT back because there is no mechanism for them to claim it. They would have to register for VAT and then charge VAT on the fees. At the moment they are not required to register.

The choice of independent education will always be dependent upon ability to pay, unless a child wins a full scholarship. How can it be otherwise? You must, therefore, be advocating either the abolition of independent schools or a wholesale redistribution of wealth.

IMO a fair society is one which doesn’t support the levying of a financial penalty knowing that it will remove from some of its members the ability to exercise a lawful choice.

In a fair society everyone would have the same lawful choice available to them. It shouldn't be dependent on ability to pay. And state and private institutions providing the same service would be treated equally when it comes to taxation.

Mollygo

MaizieD
I didn’t just scroll through this one. As I pointed out, I scrolled through posts about this from previous years and previous threads about this subject, which crop up regularly.
It’s always closing public schools or feepaying schools will improve the state of state education. But there’s never any viable proof and I haven’t seen any this time either.

Perhaps you could address what is actually being said now, on this thread, rather than what you have seen in the past.

There’s no guarantee that any additional VAT revenue would be spent on improving state education.

IMO a fair society is one which doesn’t support the levying of a financial penalty knowing that it will remove from some of its members the ability to exercise a lawful choice.

Perhaps many of those numbers you cite Joseann would not be voting Labour anyway. Isn’t it preferable that more money is available to spend on education for all rather than allowing tax breaks on education for the tiny minority? Private schools, and those who can afford to buy education, will continue to exist; having to pay VAT on fees might just be one small step towards something like a fairer society. Of course, there’s a long, long way to go before a fair society exists in the UK (if it ever will) but… ‘a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step’!

I don't think I've ever heard the Labour Party say they want to abolish private schools.
They do, however, want to make it difficult for 1.3 million voting parents, plus many voting grandparents, 500k voting staff, 1000s of service providers and trades in the independent sector.
That's an awful lot of voting people whose livelihoods could be affected with the added taxation on school fees. There might be many who won't vote for Labour on this one issue.
The party must have considered it a risk they are prepared to take when it comes to voting in a GE.