My Victor Meldrew moment

The difference between Thatcher and now is that there was a ‘special cabinet plan’. That infers that Thatcher was not acting in isolation and there had been at least some discussion with other ministers! The fact that these proposals didn’t see the light of day means that government was working……and not using the Emperor/ess or Divine Ruler model.

Papers released by the National Archives confirm that not only did Thatcher's 'special cabinet' plan to dismantle the NHS but also proposed to charge for state schooling.

Where on earth did they think people would get the money to pay for state schooling? Was it going to be funded by huge cuts in taxation? The low paid would have needed massive increases in take home pay to be able to afford it...

Has the tory party always been bonkers?😆

Dinahmo

DrWatson The Tories aaccepted the NHS but weren't really in faouvr. in fact Thatcher wanted to get rid of it but her advisers told her that the country wouldn't stand for it. Therefore the Tories have been nibbling away at it ever since.

Papers released by the National Archives confirm that not only did Thatcher's 'special cabinet' plan to dismantle the NHS but also proposed to charge for state schooling.

Denied at the time, but the released papers prove otherwise.

All whilst the Tory party were declaring that the NHS is safe with us.

DrWatson The Tories aaccepted the NHS but weren't really in faouvr. in fact Thatcher wanted to get rid of it but her advisers told her that the country wouldn't stand for it. Therefore the Tories have been nibbling away at it ever since.

MaizieD, I don't believe it either! It seems unreal, like a nightmare, sick joke or a bad comedy show. It's a (very thinly veiled) insult to the voters, an assumption that they are very stupid with short memories and complete faith in simple 'solutions' too. Politicians just love keeping us safe from harm (real or fake)>

We used to laugh so much at the Daily Mail-o-matic headline generator. Now it's alive in politics, just link any perceived threat with something you value - and there you have it. Promise an answer - ridiculous will do nicely.
There's a similar 'front page' version now: coyoteproductions.co.uk/silly/dmhg/

Ah, X posted Dickens

For Bella23 (and others) MUST we have politics on here ?

Have you never looked at the forum title, DrWatson?😂

DrWatson

For Bella23 (and others) MUST we have politics on here ? Especially ill-informed guff. One or two comments have said they're all packed with incompetence, corruption and self-interest, very true and I've been voting since the 60s.

As for "Wilson kept us out of Vietnam" - a myth. USA was heavily involved by the time that quote of Wilson was made, and we couldn't AFFORD to get involved!

Attlee/Labour did indeed give us the NHS, and so would the Tories, it had already been discussed. The country so liked Attlee he was booted out after one and a bit terms, and the NHS then had just over half the customers it has now, and we're generally older and with more ailments. Hence the struggles.

Roy Jenkins has been quoted as that, but more likely it's John Smith you're thinking of. Jenkins so liked Labour he helped form the Social Democrats?!!!

For Bella23 (and others) MUST we have politics on here ?

... eh?

Have you not noticed that this is a News & Politics forum?

Not sure why you've picked on Bella23 - or who the "others" are - anyway...

... Especially ill-informed guff

Does this mean views with which you disagree? .

What an odd comment, Dr Watson!

For Bella23 (and others) MUST we have politics on here ? Especially ill-informed guff. One or two comments have said they're all packed with incompetence, corruption and self-interest, very true and I've been voting since the 60s.

As for "Wilson kept us out of Vietnam" - a myth. USA was heavily involved by the time that quote of Wilson was made, and we couldn't AFFORD to get involved!

Attlee/Labour did indeed give us the NHS, and so would the Tories, it had already been discussed. The country so liked Attlee he was booted out after one and a bit terms, and the NHS then had just over half the customers it has now, and we're generally older and with more ailments. Hence the struggles.

Roy Jenkins has been quoted as that, but more likely it's John Smith you're thinking of. Jenkins so liked Labour he helped form the Social Democrats?!!!

grandtanteJE65

Actually, in the part of Denmark I live in, we already are sorting our rubbish in six categories. Of these five are re-cycled and the sixth, which is household waste is incinerated. So if your present or next government brings that in, it will be environmentally sound.

So would a tax on meat be, as long as vegetables are either priced lower than at present or free of VAT. And a tax on air travel would make good sense environmently speaking too.

So does it really matter if politicians are taking something that Sunak meant sarcastically seriously?

I take you are a vegetarian or vegan, otherwise why would you be calling for a tax on meat. Why not do it the other way and put a tax on veg.

I presume you are thinking of the emissions from animals, but veg are not emission free when you take into account the emissions from tractors, lorries used for deliveries
cars used when shopping, and any and all other vehicles.

I don't know about Denmark, but in the UK food, including meat and veg, is VAT zero rated as is most other food for human consumption

... PS Quokka

I realise the above is an over-simplification and that it really is not as cut-and-dried as I've implied.

Let me just put it this way - my life, in general, living a reasonably comfortable life in a fairly prosperous small town in The Cotswolds, is quite different to that of my counterpart living in a tower-block in a somewhat depressed area of East London. And that will colour our view of immigration - and just about everything else. We are worlds apart.

Quokka

Anniel

I have read all the left posts with horror. Where do you all live? Do you have a decent education and own your own homes?How many of you live in overcrowded cities and have a burgeoning population? What is the answer to stop illegal immigration/ asylum seekers entering the United Kingdom.Many of you seem to have an explanation of the overcrowding of the small land of many countries. France, Germany, Spain are examples have much space where newcomers come can live. Bravermer has lots of support from many people who feel resentful forward the amount of huge amounts spent on boat people compared on the homeless living on the streets. We cannot build homes, more schools and public services. The civil service who are employed by the Home Office are often work from home and there is a glut of handling the asylum seekers waiting for a decision. I fear the failure of immigrants who do not fit British culture and many do not speak English, Many of you do not worry about the huge amount of money we need to assimilate immigrants. I am a feminist and I dislike Islamic attitudes towards women. I also fear Islam faith regarding homosexuality. Why don’t you understand the cultural differences that Islam is problematic. Hindus and Sikhs manage to blend in but not Islam. I just cannot believe the lack of explanation in the consequences of uncontrolled immigration,

You clearly fear ‘foreigners’ especially Muslims. Hopefully you might meet some and learn that they are nirmal, hard-working humans - doctors, nurses, teachers, caters, shop assistants, delivery drivers, etc - the kind of people who kept us going during Covid.

We in the U.K. take a tiny proportion of those displaced through war, famine, etc. The Middle East, and our European neighbours take in far, far, more.

The problem is Quokka, that the gap between the under-privileged and often low-paid, living in inner-city deprived / depressed areas - and those who are 'comfortable' in the proverbial 'leafy-shires' is so wide that neither know how the other lives. And that impacts directly on each one's experience of immigration. To be blunt, the educated Muslim medic probably doesn't live in the inner-city areas of deprivation and the unskilled, poorly-educated foreigner doesn't live in the cosy Cotswolds.

So the 'comfortably off' chastise the have-nots for being racist and not understanding the plight of immigrants whilst the under-privileged blame the immigrants and accuse the more affluent of being 'woke' and 'on-the-side' of the 'foreigner'.

What we need is a rational debate about all of these issues... all of which need addressing, including that of immigration, but in today's 'rabid' climate, with the media firing-up according to its particular bias - that's not likely to happen.

This is all the result of a very unequal and divided-society.

Anniel

I have read all the left posts with horror. Where do you all live? Do you have a decent education and own your own homes?How many of you live in overcrowded cities and have a burgeoning population? What is the answer to stop illegal immigration/ asylum seekers entering the United Kingdom.Many of you seem to have an explanation of the overcrowding of the small land of many countries. France, Germany, Spain are examples have much space where newcomers come can live. Bravermer has lots of support from many people who feel resentful forward the amount of huge amounts spent on boat people compared on the homeless living on the streets. We cannot build homes, more schools and public services. The civil service who are employed by the Home Office are often work from home and there is a glut of handling the asylum seekers waiting for a decision. I fear the failure of immigrants who do not fit British culture and many do not speak English, Many of you do not worry about the huge amount of money we need to assimilate immigrants. I am a feminist and I dislike Islamic attitudes towards women. I also fear Islam faith regarding homosexuality. Why don’t you understand the cultural differences that Islam is problematic. Hindus and Sikhs manage to blend in but not Islam. I just cannot believe the lack of explanation in the consequences of uncontrolled immigration,

You clearly fear ‘foreigners’ especially Muslims. Hopefully you might meet some and learn that they are nirmal, hard-working humans - doctors, nurses, teachers, caters, shop assistants, delivery drivers, etc - the kind of people who kept us going during Covid.

We in the U.K. take a tiny proportion of those displaced through war, famine, etc. The Middle East, and our European neighbours take in far, far, more.

I have read all the left posts with horror. Where do you all live? Do you have a decent education and own your own homes?How many of you live in overcrowded cities and have a burgeoning population? What is the answer to stop illegal immigration/ asylum seekers entering the United Kingdom.Many of you seem to have an explanation of the overcrowding of the small land of many countries. France, Germany, Spain are examples have much space where newcomers come can live. Bravermer has lots of support from many people who feel resentful forward the amount of huge amounts spent on boat people compared on the homeless living on the streets. We cannot build homes, more schools and public services. The civil service who are employed by the Home Office are often work from home and there is a glut of handling the asylum seekers waiting for a decision. I fear the failure of immigrants who do not fit British culture and many do not speak English, Many of you do not worry about the huge amount of money we need to assimilate immigrants. I am a feminist and I dislike Islamic attitudes towards women. I also fear Islam faith regarding homosexuality. Why don’t you understand the cultural differences that Islam is problematic. Hindus and Sikhs manage to blend in but not Islam. I just cannot believe the lack of explanation in the consequences of uncontrolled immigration,

Bella23

Can anyone tell me if any of the other parties if they come into power will be any better?
We know what the Labour Party says it won't do but not what it will do.
It's easy to criticise but you should have your own ideas to express.
I don't have any faith in any of them the country is at crisis point.

No. The Tories are currently leading the way in misleading or even outright lying but it’s unlikely the others will be much better. Starting with any policies or promises-which they will be unable to fulfil or will have to defer using the eternal argument because of the state of the country left by the previous government.

That may well be true, it usually is. But if you know you won’t be able to fulfil a promise, or carry out a policy, why advertise it in the first place?

Tory leaders need to get their stories straight. Braverman says multiculturalism in UK hasn’t worked. Sunak praises the multicultural make-up of his cabinet, holding it up as a shining example of the success of multiculturalism in the UK. Make your minds up! That’s the trouble when you try to change a narrative by gaslighting - you’ve got to choose a narrative… and stick to it! The people are not stupid enough to fall for all this cr**.

Everything that the Tories are doing / saying now looks like desperation. They know they won’t win the next GE so they’re spouting all sorts of dangerous nonsense - they won’t be held accountable for it because they won’t be in power. They’re already talking like they’re in opposition! I just hope they don’t damage the country, any more than they already have, before the GE.

Freya5

Oreo

srn63

I agree with Bridie22, I can't see see anything disgusting in the link posted by MaizieD.

Me neither

Me neither.

Or me..

sundowngirl and biglouis

The UK has been a multicultural country for hundreds of years and IMO it has benefited us.

If you were to have your DNA it is likely that you would find that you were a mix of many ethnic groups. A few years ago the residents of one of the famous Cotswold villages had their DNA tested. Surprise - they thought they'd just be Anglo Saxon and were surprised to find that they were a mixture. in other words, mongrels like most of us.

Bridie22

I didn't think her speech disgusting, I thought she had a valid point re celebrities.

So, it's OK for the right, some of whom have lots of money and live in ivory towers, to pontificate but not celebrities. Talk about censorship!

That was in reply to Freya.

Yes, he heckled Jack Straw, was ejected from Conference, but returned next day and received apologies. He was given a hero’s welcome, I believe.

Just listened to the Marsh Family. Brilliant. Thank you for the link.

Delila

hallgreenmiss

MaizieD

Here's some of Braverman's truly disgusting speech

twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1709220568862450083

What’s really frightening is the level of support she has for her ideas. Also frightening is how a man was dragged out of the hall for daring to mildly heckle her.

Agree, very disturbing.

Remember Walter Wolfgang. Labour Party Conference 2005. Manhandled out. This man really did escape a war.

hallgreenmiss

MaizieD

Here's some of Braverman's truly disgusting speech

twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1709220568862450083

What’s really frightening is the level of support she has for her ideas. Also frightening is how a man was dragged out of the hall for daring to mildly heckle her.

Agree, very disturbing.