Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

Lammy was deeply misogynistic about it all.
With regard to Lisa Nandy I think it's very difficult and I have said this before but we have to recognise that people will change their mind on this issue, and I dont know how helpful it is to say but in 2020 they said this. We have to give people room to look and say hold on a minute I might have got this wrong. It's very hard though. Oh and it doesnt apply to Owen Jones

Starmer should have the sense not to comment 'off the cuff 'about transgender matters.
You can guarantee that off the cuff remarks will be the remarks that are remembered and dragged up again and again.
If he meant transmen, why didn’t he explain that he acknowledged that a transman may well have retained her cervix?
Or was it a Disraeli “never explain” moment?

Lammy was definitely talking about transwomen. He said transwomen don't have ovaries, but a cervix is something he understood they can have following, surgery, procedures and hormones. He obviously hasn't the faintest idea what a cervix is or he'd never spout such rubbish. A cavity created out of an inverted penis does not connect to anything, let alone a cervix and connected to a uterus!

twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

He also got confused between women and dinosaurs.

Galaxy

He also got confused between women and dinosaurs.

I’d laugh, if it wasn’t so worrying that our MPs are so ignorant of biology.

Galaxy

Lammy was deeply misogynistic about it all.
With regard to Lisa Nandy I think it's very difficult and I have said this before but we have to recognise that people will change their mind on this issue, and I dont know how helpful it is to say but in 2020 they said this. We have to give people room to look and say hold on a minute I might have got this wrong. It's very hard though. Oh and it doesnt apply to Owen Jones

I agree with this. People can and do change their minds about all sorts of things, and that's fine. I also believe that if we (collectively) make that difficult for them it will be counterproductive.

The problem is that if people change their minds when the wind blows in the wrong direction it makes them look untrustworthy, and that's the last thing Labour needs just before an election.

I think if there is going to be a change of direction it has to be open and honest, with an explanation of why it has happened - something like 'I believe in supporting the very few people who are genuinely trans and will do what I can to ensure that their lives are not made more difficult because of their trans status. All the same, I have listened to women, and I also believe that they have a right to privacy and dignity in same-sex spaces, and that the language needs to continue to reflect the fact that sex is separate from gender.' Something like that is clear and unambiguous, and might be enough to convince people that a change of heart is not just expedient.

Frankly, OJ could recite that whilst walking on hot coals and it wouldn't be enough, though.

Yes after all my forgiveness there are certain people I will never forgive and OJ is one of them. I think that JKR was right in that this issue has been a litmus test as to which men are misogynists. I may be naive but I dont think lisa nandy is a misogynist I think she was probably trying to be kind. Although terrible things have been done throughout history under the guise of kindness.

Frankly, OJ could recite that whilst walking on hot coals and it wouldn't be enough, though. that really did make me laugh out loud Doodledog I share the same thought. He really is the most loathsome misogynist.

Galaxy

Yes after all my forgiveness there are certain people I will never forgive and OJ is one of them. I think that JKR was right in that this issue has been a litmus test as to which men are misogynists. I may be naive but I dont think lisa nandy is a misogynist I think she was probably trying to be kind. Although terrible things have been done throughout history under the guise of kindness.

Apart from the matter of the 'involvement' of children - some very young children - in transgender 'issues' (I'm beginning to dislike that word but can't think of another to describe the questions arising from the whole scenario of gender-identity - it appears to boil down to one essence and that is that women are losing their previous status in intimate situations and spaces and in healthcare because of a very vocal, aggressive and demanding minority - of men. Men who are insisting that, almost at the flick of a switch, they can be women if they choose... with the same status as biological women. And if those women - we - want to debate the matter, we are told that it's not up for debate, cancelled, no-platformed, verbally abused and insulted and called transphobic, bigots and TERFS. In some cases even threatened with violence and rape.

What is this other than men behaving as misogynists have always behaved towards women? This is simply men attacking women.

What is this other than men behaving as misogynists have always behaved towards women? This is simply men attacking women.
You said it!
Refuse to condemn the men’s behaviour, find reasons to excuse it, allow incorrect biological details to be spoken as truth, call women Terfs, it’s not just men doing the attacking.

Mollygo

^What is this other than men behaving as misogynists have always behaved towards women? This is simply men attacking women.^
You said it!
Refuse to condemn the men’s behaviour, find reasons to excuse it, allow incorrect biological details to be spoken as truth, call women Terfs, it’s not just men doing the attacking.

I'm a biological woman who understands discrimination. As much as I might sympathise with men who identify as women in that 'inner' place, wherever it is, and do not feel comfortable as men, or dislike the stereotype that society wants to force on them, the fact is the path of their life and mine will have been very different, physically and culturally, emotionally and mentally. Until they decided on their gender identity, they were part of the male hierarchy - unless they fully transitioned at a very early age... which is doubtful. They may have been, and are, very nice men, and I don't want to see them picked on, harassed, abused, attacked, or vilified because they want to go their own way.
But the fact remains they are still men - unless they've managed to change the billions of cells in their body. And they cannot alter the status of natal women, change the language that relates to women, invade their intimate spaces, tell them that they must be quiet and not question, insist that we ignore the science and that they are the arbiters of what womanhood is or isn't.

They cannot erase biological women as a sex because it doesn't chime with what they want.

Sorry, perhaps my post is confusing.
As far as I’m concerned, male is male no matter what they call themselves.
A certain group of these TW cause trouble, harm and distress to females (and to the TW who wish simply to live in their chosen gender without encroaching on female rights, safe spaces etc.)
The sad thing is that some of the TRA who condone the violence or refuse to condemn the violence against women, those who try to find excuses and those who scream TERF, transphobia etc. are female. I see that as women supporting misogyny rather than females.
If that’s still confusing, my excuse is I’m planning and marking for tomorrow.😊

I think you are both saying the same thing, really