Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

I'm sure most debating societies would have rules against personally attacking someone with an allegation like racism though?

I was never into debating societies and such (despite someone on GN a few years ago saying that all posters should be able to logically defend their point of view, with evidence, because "everyone did debating at school".

However, it does seem that one feature of debating societies is that people are told "Next week we will be debating (insert the subject) You, X, will be speaking for this, and you, Y, will second it. You, A, will speak against it, and you, B, will second that." No need to have a genuine opinion, it is an exercise in being persuasive for the sake of it. Good training for a political career.

The result of some people in some schools having "debating experience" of this kind is that they become practiced at arguing strongly and persuasively for or against something without necessarily having the slightest interest in it, They are adept at using tactics that could put their "opponent" off their stride - like throwing doubt on their credentials or integrity, sounding scornful of the quality of the evidence they have produced and acting amused at their naivety.

LovesBach

'Shouting and pointing' is quite alarming: the default reaction when anything challenging is said that certain factions don't agree with. Reasonable discussion is the first casualty. Accusations are made and the 'victim' is so occupied in attempting to defend what they have said - or, more usually, what they haven't said but have been accused of - that the original point is lost.

I don’t understand the point being made here LovesBach.
Who is being accused of ‘shouting and pointing’.
What caused the original point, that men are men and women are women to be lost?

So are you saying that the accusation of racism is a diversionary tactic to move away from the point of the thread? Sorry if not - I’m not sure what you were getting at really.

'Shouting and pointing' is quite alarming: the default reaction when anything challenging is said that certain factions don't agree with. Reasonable discussion is the first casualty. Accusations are made and the 'victim' is so occupied in attempting to defend what they have said - or, more usually, what they haven't said but have been accused of - that the original point is lost.

I don’t think I am guilty of unconscious bias though. I don’t care what race CS is - my concern (that others have also expressed) is with a male-bodied person competing against women. Why am I being singled out for slurs? The only thing I said differently is that I have sympathy for CS’s situation, which I do.

Elegran

There is also another nasty way of getting in a dig, it is by accusing someone of "unconscious racism" implying that racism is so engrained into their minds that they are automatically racist to anyone who is not a white caucasian. This is both hurtful and impossible to counter - the reply to anything you say is likely to be that of course you would think that you treat everyone the same, because your racism is unconscious.

The only "cure" apparently, is to "go on a course" and have it thoroughly dinned into you that you are a vile sinner and must eat dirt and beg forgiveness. That is very reminiscent of the way some religious sects give their new converts an indoctrination into how they are - yes - vile sinners and must get down on their knees and confess how black their hearts are and how they can only be saved by following to the letter the prescribed path of atonement and obedience.

The 'G' penned an article on unconscious bias, oh many years ago now, in relation to white men and women not considering dating their black counterparts because of it.

It didn't seem to occur to them to ask black men and women whether they would automatically choose to date a white man or woman - if they deigned to consider their bias?

Unconscious bias indeed!

There is also another nasty way of getting in a dig, it is by accusing someone of "unconscious racism" implying that racism is so engrained into their minds that they are automatically racist to anyone who is not a white caucasian. This is both hurtful and impossible to counter - the reply to anything you say is likely to be that of course you would think that you treat everyone the same, because your racism is unconscious.

The only "cure" apparently, is to "go on a course" and have it thoroughly dinned into you that you are a vile sinner and must eat dirt and beg forgiveness. That is very reminiscent of the way some religious sects give their new converts an indoctrination into how they are - yes - vile sinners and must get down on their knees and confess how black their hearts are and how they can only be saved by following to the letter the prescribed path of atonement and obedience.

Good idea to leave it there.

Thanks, Dickens. This has really upset me. Usually Glorianny's digs are water off a duck's back, but racism is such a vile slur that I really feel attacked.

I didn't even criticise CS - I was sympathising with her on the basis that she may not have realised what was happening if, as was initially claimed, she was considered to be female at birth and had 'lived all her life as a woman'.

I was going to report the post, but on reflection I won't, as I would rather people can see for themselves what was said, and how unfounded the accusation is.

Accusations levelled at someone - that they are racist - are nasty. There needs to be justification for such a claim.

It's possible that an individual can say something that another perceives as racist, but that doesn't mean that it is.

Criticism aimed at a person who is black is criticism of them as a person, not as a black person.

I don't believe for one minute that DD is racist or that her observations were. I think either an explanation or an apology is called for.

Thanks, NanKate and Molly. I would never be intentionally racist, but I am aware that sometimes it is possible to be unaware of the possible readings of what we say. I just can't see anything in my post that justifies such an attack though - CS's race is far from being the point.

Am I going mad in this crazy world ? They’ll be saying men go through the menopause next! Oh dear, I see they have. 😳

Doodledog I can’t see the racism because it isn’t there.
Maybe Glorianny will pop back in a minute to explain or apologise. . . or maybe not.

Agree Doodledog 👍

Can anyone see racism in my post? I was talking about someone with male characteristics competing as a woman - her race has nothing to do with it as far as I am concerned.

This has happened before when CS was dragged into a thread - then I was accused of being akin to the KKK because I suggested that however unfortunate a DSD may be for one individual, allowing all the female athletes racing against that individual to suffer is unacceptable. The KKK!!

That comment was subsequently withdrawn, but now the same poster is accusing me of racism for posting the same sentiment.

CS’s race is irrelevant now as it was then. It is not I who brought it up (in either case), but the person accusing me of being racist. Disgraceful behaviour.

Mollygo

Dickens
In what way is the comment racist?
Because Glorianny sats so. She always brings racism into threads about sex being male or female.

It's an absurd accusation.

I can't see the logic in it, at all.

Glorianny Where is the racism?

Glorianny

^If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her^
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

Well you and I differ on what constitutes racism and sexism. I don't see being non-racist as never criticising a person of colour, any more than I see feminism as never disagreeing with a woman.

You routinely accuse posters of not being feminist or 'supportive of women' if we criticise one woman, and this is not the first time you have been very offensive to me when I have suggested that an African athlete may have deliberately cheated, or may have been manipulated into doing so.

I find accusations of racism extremely offensive, and would like you to withdraw that, please. It is in fact your assumption that I said what I did because she is African that is racist. It never crossed my mind. I would feel exactly the same if the family (or her trainers - as I keep saying, I do not know the case) were British, Italian, Chinese or anything else.

I said that if she had been manipulated into believing she is female then I would feel sorry for her. I did not say that she had been, and I certainly didn't say anything about her race, or anything to suggest that her race had anything to do with any of this - that all came from you.

Please explain what is racist about what I said, before I report the post for defamation.

Dickens
In what way is the comment racist?
Because Glorianny sats so. She always brings racism into threads about sex being male or female.

Glorianny

^If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her^
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

In what way is the comment racist?

If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

Glorianny
The absolute racism implying that this was some sort of planned action by an African sports woman in order to cheat is disgusting.

Well you made this accusation here.
I might have missed it before, but you are the first person who TMK has said it.
Actually the support for any males competing in female sports or claiming to be women is disgusting.

So now people on this thread think they have more knowledge than the IAAF which performed a number of tests on CS and cleared her to participate as a woman. She is still permitted to participate in some events, the testosterone test is only used for certain distances.

The levels of testosterone in high level athletes have been shown to have overlapping levels in men and women, some men having very low levels and some women higher levels.

The absolute racism implying that this was some sort of planned action by an African sports woman in order to cheat is disgusting.

Yes, this is a very different picture from that of a woman who had ‘lived as’ such all her life suddenly being denied the right to compete because she seemed too masculine, isn’t it? If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her. She must be confused and psychologically ‘homeless’.

But that doesn’t mean that women should have to lose out to her, after they too have trained and worked towards competition at the highest levels. These things have to be fair to all.

Rosie 51
Thanks for that added information about simpler non-invasive tests and the AIS raised as females with insensitivity to testosterone.
I’d be interested to know if anyone supporting CS, or the TW cheating in female sport, would have supported the testosterone enhancing policies of Russia and East Germany which enabled their athletes to win. Or do they believe it’s only TW who are allowed to cheat?