Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

The belief that there are only two genders is not universal. Both some Native American cultures and rabbinical literature recognise and respect multiple genders.

The existence of intersex people would suggest that the sex of individuals is more nuanced than some believe.

My friends ‘daughter’ identifies as male and I would not dream of misgendering him. My friend from university is a trans female. She is female as far as I’m concerned.

I'm deeply unsubtle about all this. My red line is drawn at: if you have a penis then you should use the men's facilities; if you haven't then you can use the women's. If you possess a penis but have an overarching desire to use the women's facilities, then you must have it removed.

Otherwise you call yourself anything you like and dress any way you like, no one cares.

(Although the person I saw striding down the high street in heels, mini skirt, bouffant wig, full face of makeup, and a big bushy grey beard, did seem to have missed an important memo...)

Here we go aiming at the right wing intelligentsia again!!!

LovesBach

NannyC1

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Yes - and the point of this is?

There is always someone who brings it up, and it has little or no bearing on the subject of trans issues.

NannyC1

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Yes - and the point of this is?

I agree with your friend, Fernhillnana.

I’m not sure if this helps the debate but my friend who is a (gay) man says this whole trans debacle is “straight men trying to oppress and dominate women - again”.

Lovey, if you don’t know about the actions of some TW e.g cheating in sport etc. and the violence and discrimination against females, by TRA I’m not sure where you’ve been.
Elegran’s post above puts it really well.

LizzieDrip

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

I was in a women's ward awhile back - a man from the men's bay continually came into the ward, for no particular purpose other than to look at the women and walk out again.

An elderly lady who had a catheter hanging out of her vagina, finding it difficult to hold her nightdress closed behind her back and walk with her Zimmer at the same time became confused and upset when he came into the ward. I told him- politely - that he was in the wrong ward, to which he responded with an expletive and the observation that he was "allowed" to be in there. I have absolutely no idea whether he was a trans woman or not, but the point is - there are some places and spaces where women would prefer not to have men around. Even if they are wearing the same nightgown - if they have a penis - they are men.

It might not matter to you personally, but it does matter to a heck of a lot of other women.

There are now fewer communal changing rooms - but they still exist. I read on a SM site where a woman with her young daughter was in a communal changing area in their swimming pool and had to watch as this man took off his wet swim wear and stood there with a semi-erect penis fondling himself while he searched for his dress and shoes.

Single cubicles are fine - if they reach from floor to ceiling - many don't.

Men who identify as women with full male genitalia shoul not be in those communal spaces.

Livey

Why is it so important to some people. What ever someone feels comfortable with be it male/female- female/male, doesn’t harm anyone else.
Or does it ?
Does the average person know enough about this, to make a judgement.

No-one wants to deny people the right to wear what they want to wear, love who they love, spend their time doing whatever they wish, but that goes two ways. Most trans people just want a fulfilling life, being themselves, but there is a minority of activists who seem to see life as a battleground in which they have to defeat non-trans people, and a minority who have carried over into their transwoman lives the macho attitudes of their male past.

Eileen

If there is equality what does it matter

If men and women really were equal - in size, in strength and in the hormonal differences which lead to the greater muscular development that occurs at puberty in men, and the greater aggression shown by them (recorded in statistics of crimes of violence), it wouldn't matter so much.

It doesn't much matter, either, who is in the next cubicle in a row all occupied by other people busy choosing clothes or changing into a swimsuit.

It does matter if a female patient is immobilised in a hospital bed in a single room in a women's ward, and gets an uninvited night visit from a self-id'd transwoman who has kept all his/her male parts and male hormones and male urges.

It matters if a similar prisoner in jail has self id'd as female and is in a female prison surrounded by vulnerable women.

It matters if a very mediocre male athlete or swimmer transitions and enters all-female competitions, suddenly zooming up the ratings with his male physique past women who have trained for years. (In one recent case, a woman and a transwoman tied for third place - but it was the transwoman who was placed on the step of the podium, while the woman with the same score got no recognition at all.

It matters if women who have fled to a refuge to escape domestic violence from men and are traumatised by the close presence on males find that they have to share the accommodation with bearded transwomen.

It matters if a preteen girl who would rather climb a tree in jeans than spend an hour trying on pretty dresses, or a preteen boy who likes crocheting and hates team sports, are pushed into believing that they are "in the wrong body" and prescribed puberty-delaying hormones and eventually progress into surgery, instead of being left alone to develop into an average adult of their own sex.

LizzieDrip

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

LizzieDrip have you failed to see any of the publicity, and indeed prosecutions, that have arisen from some mixed sex changing facilities? Many facilities are not floor to ceiling solid walls with a solid door, but partitions stopping short of floor and ceiling and some with a curtain for a 'door'. There have been recorded incidents of men using phone cameras directed under the partition to film women undressing. There have been incidents of men 'accidentally' pulling back the curtain to expose a half naked woman. This is just a step further from the "up skirting" practice which was outlawed on 12 April 2019.
Single sex needs to be just that, based on sex. When any man can declare himself a transwoman and gain access to women's facilities despite having made no changes to himself, it accords predators easy, unhindered access to potential victims.

Why is it so important to some people. What ever someone feels comfortable with be it male/female- female/male, doesn’t harm anyone else.
Or does it ?
Does the average person know enough about this, to make a judgement.

Sunak the twitter sentiment PM

If there is equality what does it matter

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

We need these ppl to state the obvious that putting a dress on doesn’t make you a woman. I felt that strongly about it I joined women’s rights WRN. I never thought that i would have to fight for being a woman in my life. And these are very violent against women at the rallies etc. I’m all for live and let live but this is crossing the line when you dare not go in public loos incase a man walks in. I was at train station loo weren’t open on the train and while waiting for second train I had to nip into station loo and this man walked in and said I’m a woman he clearly wasn’t or even trying to dress like one but myself and others soon frog marched him out lol

Glorianny Perhaps you should have the grace to ask me what my definition of 'gender atheist' means? You are obviously applying your individual definition. No I don't always shop in the women's department of a shop, I do go in women's toilets because I'm of the female sex for whom they're intended, I don't often use changing rooms preferring to try clothes on at home, and I rarely go swimming these days. I function perfectly well in every day life thank you, although I appreciate your concern.

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Glorianny Speak to any woman who has worked with Graham Lineham and they will tell you exactly how he treats women. Not surprisingly he wants to apply the same restrictions to all women. you've spoken to them all have you? How exactly does he treat them? All I know of him is he supports women's rights to dignity, privacy and safety, and therefore the absolute need for some single sex places. There are plenty of women who say Graham Lineham is a lovely man, I've seen them in print and on Youtube.

Rosie51

Glorianny when I gave the biological definition of female you replied that was my definition, others would have other definitions. You implied we were all permitted our own definitions. Suddenly, when it suits your agenda there is but one definition of ideology. Perhaps you'd prefer the term gender religion, since it is a belief/faith based movement? Suits me, I can call myself a gender atheist.

GrammarGrandma have you missed all the reports of the men who declare they are transwomen who are in court for sexual assaults up to and including rape? I have no objection to transpeople living their lives as they see fit, and for the most part transwomen have few restrictions on them, except they should stay out of women's single sex spaces. You must have seen the transwomen who look like any other male, many sporting luxurious beards, and 90% keep their penis, so how are they different to all the other males? I have a transman in my extended family. It's always about transwomen though isn't it? Do you know any women who have been raped? I do and I know how hard it would have been if she'd not been able to access a single sex trauma group. If she'd lived in Brighton that wouldn't have been possible.

MummyJoJo62 it could be argued the heartless ones are those who don't care that a raped woman can be forced to refer to her rapist as "she" in court when reliving the vile way he used his penis to abuse her. Did you miss the Isla Bryson furore as just one example?

If you are a "gender atheist" how do you function in every day life? Do you not go to a women's toilet? Do you not use a women's changing room? Do you not shop in the women's department of a shop?

Our every move is regulated by our gender. Which is what society sees of us. It does not see genitals or chromosomes. It does not examine every cell in anyone's body to ascertain their sex. It makes its judgements mostly on appearance. Which is what is so dangerous about this concept of "a man is a man and a woman is a woman" because the only way that can be applied in everyday life is by setting down restrictive guidelines about identifying all of us. Which means anyone a little different from those guidelines will either be discriminated against or have to constantly prove their gender, through some form of ID. It isn't a situation I want to see. And that is absolutely nothing to do with transpeople but with the right of every individual to dress and present as they wish without the need to prove anything.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Please could someone explain the ideology to me. Because on this I'm with the Chair of the London Assembly -Gender ideology- there's no such thing!

The ideology is that people can choose which sex they want to be.

That so-called 'gender' trumps biology (despite the obvious fact that gender is societally formed and is not innate at all).

That there is no need for safe spaces for biological women, as there is no difference between them and transwomen.

That men just need to say that they are women to become so, and thus gain access to anywhere that women can go, and compete against women in sports that require strength and are designed to test male bodies, and that women can say they are men and that will come true as well.

That children should be encouraged to believe that there are countless 'genders' and that they might be 'in the wrong body' - a concept that cannot be properly explained.

That a confused child who says that he or she is, in fact, the opposite sex should have this 'affirmed' by parents and schools, and that it should be legal for them to take puberty blockers and/or bind their breasts to prevent them from developing as nature intended.

That adolescents be given drugs that have radical effects, and that they will have to take them, at huge expense, for the rest of their lives.

And in common with most ideology it says that anyone not on board with all of that is a heretic and deserves to be silenced at all costs, with the use of threats if necessary.

By denying there is an ideology Mr Boff is saying that it is quite normal for men to be women if they say they are (and vice versa). No, he didn't actually say that, that's my interpretation.

Perhaps "ideology" isn't the right word anyway - maybe he's right, it isn't really an ideology... but it is a belief.

A belief that you can change your sex - which you cannot because as Professor Winston says it is embedded in genes in every cell in the body. We are genetically determined. Medical science has not yet found a way to alter those billions of cells.

Changing your gender identity is another matter. But one really should not be confused with the other.

Is anyone on here really transphobic? Is anyone against anyone else identifying with whichever gender they want to identify with? I don't think so.

Are there men who will take advantage of self ID as a woman - yes, they already have.

Is it right that a man committing a crime (any crime) later self IDs as a woman and is recorded as a female crime statistic, no it damned well is not right.

I could go on, but we've covered much of the ground already.

So let's call the ideology a belief. One that, if you refuse to accept it, can have consequences- like death / rape threats, loss of a job (and therefore income).

We are therefore being threatened, not only by cancelling and no-platforming, but also with threats of violence, and job losses. Because we don't believe what they believe. We don't accept that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he is. And, those that hold this belief were once a minority, but have now managed to convince rational and logical people - high-profile people and organisations - that Science is wrong and they are right... and you'd better believe it!

... and we're supposed to accept this?

As for Braverman - I don't listen to her, she's playing to the gallery for the sake of votes (and possibly the prospect of her being the future leader of the Tory party?). But, she should be challenged on what she said, not the fact that she raised the matter - though one could question her motives.

Doodledog

Glorianny I knew that you would pick up on what you see as a difference in interpretation of the word 'ideology'. It's a shame GN don't have a bookie on here - I'd be worth a fortune if I could bet on your responses.

Here's another one for you:
Ideology' is a particularly slippery term that is still widely used in sociology. Its core meaning is identified as 'a set of beliefs treated as distinctive to a particular group or category of person'. There are many other definitions. Take your pick. All the same, what I posted is a system of ideas and ideals which form the basis of a number of policies in workplaces, hospitals, prisons, schools and other areas, which fits with your own choice of definition.

When you say 'now there is nothing', what do you mean?

Yes, people are being silenced - I say it again, just because you may have had no experience of trans dictatorship when you were in the workplace does not mean that it is not there now. And look at people like Graham Linehan, or Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey etc etc. They may or may not gave been silenced because of the success of campaigns to stop it from happening, but the ideology decreed that they should have been, and it is absolutely the case that the attempt was made.

And please cease and desist with the unsubtle fascist digs? Your Cable Street reference is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about above - I rest my case .

Kathleen Stock is widely published and read and has a position at a US college that supports her ideas. She was working at a university which welcomed transpeople when she had her epiphany. She then had a lucrative book tour and a new job. So how exactly has she been silenced?

Speak to any woman who has worked with Graham Lineham and they will tell you exactly how he treats women. Not surprisingly he wants to apply the same restrictions to all women.

My definition is a dictionary definition by the way, no idea where yours came from.

I suppose the "surge in the number of people wanting to change sex" is similar to the increase in the numbers of gay people that emerged when homosexuality was legalised. It's simply a matter of people living hidden lives until they are able to express themselves properly.

I did wonder how those who have transitioned, and their loved ones, felt on hearing Sunak’s heartless statement, not to mention his politicising of their difficult journeys.

Glorianny when I gave the biological definition of female you replied that was my definition, others would have other definitions. You implied we were all permitted our own definitions. Suddenly, when it suits your agenda there is but one definition of ideology. Perhaps you'd prefer the term gender religion, since it is a belief/faith based movement? Suits me, I can call myself a gender atheist.

GrammarGrandma have you missed all the reports of the men who declare they are transwomen who are in court for sexual assaults up to and including rape? I have no objection to transpeople living their lives as they see fit, and for the most part transwomen have few restrictions on them, except they should stay out of women's single sex spaces. You must have seen the transwomen who look like any other male, many sporting luxurious beards, and 90% keep their penis, so how are they different to all the other males? I have a transman in my extended family. It's always about transwomen though isn't it? Do you know any women who have been raped? I do and I know how hard it would have been if she'd not been able to access a single sex trauma group. If she'd lived in Brighton that wouldn't have been possible.

MummyJoJo62 it could be argued the heartless ones are those who don't care that a raped woman can be forced to refer to her rapist as "she" in court when reliving the vile way he used his penis to abuse her. Did you miss the Isla Bryson furore as just one example?