Hamas has attacked Israel

Yes growstuff, you assume correctly. However I believe the Israeli army is made up from the Jewish population who live in Israel and are citizens of that country.

Thank you for clarification GrannyGravy. I thought that was probably the case.

Another good post Iam. I’m completely in agreement with you that the history is crucial to understanding the present. I’ve reiterated this several times on this thread and I stand by it.

maddyone

Are Hamas saying the Jewish army did these things GrannyGravy? Because according to the news reports on the BBC tonight, the Jewish army have not yet entered Gaza. But it was reported that Hamas beheaded a Jewish grandmother in her front garden and have massacred all the civilians, including every child and baby, in a village near to Gaza. The body bags were shown but thankfully not the bodies.
God help them all.

According to posts on social media Hamas are claiming responsibility and posting the videos of these heinous atrocities

maddyone

Are Hamas saying the Jewish army did these things GrannyGravy? Because according to the news reports on the BBC tonight, the Jewish army have not yet entered Gaza. But it was reported that Hamas beheaded a Jewish grandmother in her front garden and have massacred all the civilians, including every child and baby, in a village near to Gaza. The body bags were shown but thankfully not the bodies.
God help them all.

I assume you mean the Israeli army.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

Unfortunately tickingbird there are people who think all Muslims are like Isis or Hamas.

I know growstuff I have several dear friends who are Muslim, along with one of my closest girlfriends who is Jewish.

It’s possible to be empathetic to the civilians of Gaza & Israel without supporting Hamas or Mr. Netanyahu’s government.

I agree.

Are Hamas saying the Jewish army did these things GrannyGravy? Because according to the news reports on the BBC tonight, the Jewish army have not yet entered Gaza. But it was reported that Hamas beheaded a Jewish grandmother in her front garden and have massacred all the civilians, including every child and baby, in a village near to Gaza. The body bags were shown but thankfully not the bodies.
God help them all.

I agree with you GrannyGravy.
Clearly there is no race or religion where every member is bad/evil. And every race and religion has members who are bad/evil. And every race or religion has good people who are the majority.
However I feel for Tickingbird and other Jewish Gransnet members because reading some of the comments on here must have been very painful for them and will have come across as antisemitism, whatever those who are not Jewish may say. There has been some overt support for Hamas on the thread, rather more at the beginning I think, and some more considered posts since, and especially looking at the centuries of history that have brought us to where we are now.

Iam64

*it’s possible to be empathetic to the civilians of Gaza and Israel withiut supporting Hamas of Mr Netanyahu’s government *

I understand the here and now but agree with Whitewave - we benefit from understanding something of the history.

Definition of Zionism - a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. Established I. 1897 under Theodore Herzl (Oxford languages dictionary)

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews. Though Zionism originated in eastern and Central Europe, in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine, where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion. (Zionism nationalistic movement. The Encyclopeadia Britannica October 2023)

I struggle when I hear Zionist used as a means of putting someone down, dismissing their beliefs as somehow unacceptable

I doubt that the civilians hiding from bombs on either side are contemplating past history.

We all know the past happened, but for the sake of the children (Hamas have put up videos of the beheading of boy children and burning alive of babies) Governments need to look to the future not the past.

it’s possible to be empathetic to the civilians of Gaza and Israel withiut supporting Hamas of Mr Netanyahu’s government

I understand the here and now but agree with Whitewave - we benefit from understanding something of the history.

Definition of Zionism - a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. Established I. 1897 under Theodore Herzl (Oxford languages dictionary)

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews. Though Zionism originated in eastern and Central Europe, in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine, where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion. (Zionism nationalistic movement. The Encyclopeadia Britannica October 2023)

I struggle when I hear Zionist used as a means of putting someone down, dismissing their beliefs as somehow unacceptable

growstuff

Unfortunately tickingbird there are people who think all Muslims are like Isis or Hamas.

I know growstuff I have several dear friends who are Muslim, along with one of my closest girlfriends who is Jewish.

It’s possible to be empathetic to the civilians of Gaza & Israel without supporting Hamas or Mr. Netanyahu’s government.

Most Muslims are not like Isis or Hamas. However, the incredible restrictions Israel put on life in Gaza is a breeding ground for disaffected youths to happily join Hamas. No surprise there. It's not anti Semitic to say that. There is a difference between anti semitism and anti Israeli politics

GrannyGravy
A young Palestinian women spoke on woman’s hour yesterday.
She summed up what you feel and many of us in regard to Hamas.

Unfortunately tickingbird there are people who think all Muslims are like Isis or Hamas.

Jewish schools in the USA are telling their students to delete Tik-Tok and other social media platforms as Hamas has begun posting videos of Israeli hostages pleading for their lives.

I feel for the innocent civilians of Gaza, but if I was to post my opinion of Hamas it would get me banned from GN

tickingbird

The Palestinians have no more voted in Hamas than the Iraqis voted in Isis. They terrorise Palestinians. They know the unbearable suffering that’s going to be brought on the population. Hamas are TERRORISTS and bloodthirsty ones at that, much like their Isis counterparts. There is no negotiating with these animals. They want all Jews wiped off the face of the earth as do most other Muslim countries.

Siding with these monsters for political reasons is despicable. They’ve beheaded babies, gunned down a row of pensioners in cold blood waiting at a bus stop. They’ve kidnapped a terrified mother holding on to her young babies. It makes me weep. I also weep for the onslaught which will surely come for the innocent Palestinians. I am at a loss to understand why the world hates Jews (I am one).

A lot of this nonsense about pent up resentment for the hardline Israeli government being the cause is nothing more than anti semitism. You don’t hate Muslims for all the evil committed by the likes of Saudi Arabia. Iran etc but hold Jews responsible and think they deserve these horrors because of their government.

Having sympathy and understanding for the men that planned these evil massacres is just appalling.

Hear hear.

Someone who actually knows what's going on.

I'd also like to know why women are banging the drum for Palestine .

They could do some research about how women are treated there.

Well said tickingbird.
There have been some posts supporting what Hamas have done. I find it deplorable. No one supports ISIS but for some reason Hamas are just trying to right a wrong. No, Hamas are terrorists. This support from some quarters disturbs me, frankly I think it’s antisemitic.

The Palestinians have no more voted in Hamas than the Iraqis voted in Isis. They terrorise Palestinians. They know the unbearable suffering that’s going to be brought on the population. Hamas are TERRORISTS and bloodthirsty ones at that, much like their Isis counterparts. There is no negotiating with these animals. They want all Jews wiped off the face of the earth as do most other Muslim countries.

Siding with these monsters for political reasons is despicable. They’ve beheaded babies, gunned down a row of pensioners in cold blood waiting at a bus stop. They’ve kidnapped a terrified mother holding on to her young babies. It makes me weep. I also weep for the onslaught which will surely come for the innocent Palestinians. I am at a loss to understand why the world hates Jews (I am one).

A lot of this nonsense about pent up resentment for the hardline Israeli government being the cause is nothing more than anti semitism. You don’t hate Muslims for all the evil committed by the likes of Saudi Arabia. Iran etc but hold Jews responsible and think they deserve these horrors because of their government.

Having sympathy and understanding for the men that planned these evil massacres is just appalling.

After the war.

The pressure continued from the Zionists and continued immigration. Zionist also fought a guerrilla war which culminated in the blowing up of the King David Hotel full of British official and military. 91 lives were lost.

The Arabs continued to mobilise in response to Zionist violence.

The Balfour mandate collapsed.

WW2

The moderate wing of the Jewish community supported the British during the war and at the end of the war in 1944 a Jewish brigade attached to the British army was formed.

The Jewish Palestinian community known as the Yushuv now absolutely insisted that open ended Jewish immigration and a Jewish state must be formed. They had the support of USA

The Palestinian Arabs also almost entirely supported the allies during the war, and were largely quiet during this period in relation to the status of Palestine.

The discovery of the Holocaust and the dreadful culmination of Jewish persecution throughout the centuries focused minds considerably and America in particular insisted on allowing the survivors free passage to Palestine.

Meanwhile the Arabs announced that although what had happened to the Jews in Europe was something to be condemned and bitterly regretted, this should be no reason or excuse for pushing Palestinians off their land to make way for the survivors.

Whitewavemark2

Just like the rest of the world it doesn’t want to deal with a load of refugees.

I know about the tunnels but they’re going to be of precious little help to the refugees.

I’ve always believed Arab nations to be two faced and this backs up my theory.

Just like the rest of the world it doesn’t want to deal with a load of refugees.

merlotgran

Getting back to the present day…Can anyone tell me why Egypt has a closed border with Gaza? Surely a fellow Muslim country should be offering to help those desperate people trying to flee and have no way out?

Agreement with Israel - although there are tunnels which is how maybe the armaments got through?

Getting back to the present day…Can anyone tell me why Egypt has a closed border with Gaza? Surely a fellow Muslim country should be offering to help those desperate people trying to flee and have no way out?

In 1939 the British in effect yielded to Arab demands stating that a Jewish homeland should exist within the Palestinian state. This marked the end of the cooperation between the Zionist and Britain, although more moderate Jews were not part of this. However progress towards a Jewish “homeland was being achieved with remarkable speed with 1\7th of arable land belonging to the Jewish population. Zionist institutions were built.

WW2

During this period, the Zionists wanted to continue with Jewish immigration, with much more urgency given the unfolding events in Europe but the British felt it would muddy the waters in the war effort, considering it to be illegal, and led this attitude to the dreadful sinking of two ships carrying Jewish refugees.

This prompted the formation of terrorist groups, one being known as The Stern Gang. Resulting in the assassination of Lord Moyne.

I find it is difficult not to be critical of the British during this period tbh.

Too random for me thanks, so am out.