Hamas has attacked Israel

Callistemon21

I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out that Stewart's potted guide omits important bits of history which could have been included in a sentence or two.

fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/displace.htm

A quick resume of displacement.

Now that you’ve got that out of the way, perhaps you could help look at the period leading up to the Second World War?

It is for everyone’s benefit who like me is filled with horror and wonders how on earth we got to this point.

What is clear that as soon as it is mentioned there is disagreement and no meeting of minds. I would hope that if we got the oh so complicated history straight that at least we would be all singing from the same hymn sheet.

And I just included a vital potted bit prior to WW2.

🙂

I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out that Stewart's potted guide omits important bits of history which could have been included in a sentence or two.

fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/displace.htm

A quick resume of displacement.

Callistemon21

^2000 years ago - Romans invaded and many Jews fled to various European countries^
He also fails to mention that the countries they fled to, after vast numbers of Jewish people were massacred, were also then part of the Roman Empire.

It really is not a very factual potted history.

Oh dear - this is what I mean! Instead of being critical be positive and add your knowledge, help with everyone’s understanding and work together.

Callistemon21

Very potted indeed Whitewave.

Stewart seems to have missed out the few hundred years up to WW1 where where Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire

^The mix in Palestine changed as a result with Arabs and Jews pretty equal and who jogged along pretty well throughout the period leading up to the Balfour declaration^

Well it would be good if you can fill in stuff, where you think it would bring a bigger understanding as it is a huge undertaking, and it would be brilliant if instead of arguing we could all pull together to bring a better understanding of the situation.

Oh! I would also like to add that my knowledge (such that it is) is from a course that I completed run by the Holocaust museum in Israel.

2000 years ago - Romans invaded and many Jews fled to various European countries
He also fails to mention that the countries they fled to, after vast numbers of Jewish people were massacred, were also then part of the Roman Empire.

It really is not a very factual potted history.

I meant to add, but under the rule of yet another Empire - the Ottomans.

Very potted indeed Whitewave.

Stewart seems to have missed out the few hundred years up to WW1 where where Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire

The mix in Palestine changed as a result with Arabs and Jews pretty equal and who jogged along pretty well throughout the period leading up to the Balfour declaration

A potted history of the Jews - with thanks to Rory Stewart mixed with my knowledge.

3000 years ago - Palestine was largely populated by Jews intermixed with Arabs

2000 years ago - Romans invaded and many Jews fled to various European countries.
The mix in Palestine changed as a result with Arabs and Jews pretty equal and who jogged along pretty well throughout the period leading up to the Balfour declaration.

19th century - because of the pogroms, suppression, hate and anti-semitism experience by Jews throughout their time in Europe a group calling themselves Zionists developed the idea that Jews could return to Palestine and have a Jewish state free from hate, anti-semitism etc etc.

The Zionists were Russian and from Eastern Europe and tried to sell their idea throughout mainland Europe without success. They then got lucky and found a supporter initially in Rothschild who then persuaded others in the British establishment to support the Zionist aim for a Jewish state, although throughout the 19 th century there had always been sympathy for a Jewish homeland ( for different reasons)

1917 Balfour declaration, which indicated British support for a “Jewish home” Palestine was mentioned, but the British government later backtracked saying that they never intended that the whole of Palestine should be included.
At this time only 10% of the population of Palestine were Jewish. The Christian and Muslim population who represented 90% of the population strongly apposed the declaration

That is the very early history.

From now on in it gets very very complicated and is probably best bitten off in bits.

I think that understanding the history will help to avoid misunderstanding and argument, as there is enough tension and argument as it is without not understanding how we got here.

This could all have been anticipated 70 years ago. You cannot create a new state, dump it down in land taken off existing nations, and expect harmony.

The level of hatred and fear on both side is appalling. My heart goes out to the ‘ordinary’ people.

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maddyone

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Well you should be ashamed of your ignorance then.

Brainwashing and education are two very separate things.

I trust Aveline to be very aware of the history of expansion. The concept that the God of Jews gave them the whole territory, and that constant, cruel, inhumane expansion is therefore their God given Right- is just SO very wrong.

Have a look at the expansion since 1948. This was NEVER meant to happen. Some Palestinian territory was stolen from them to give for a Jewish State. That was bad enough- but could have led to some agreement and finally, peace. But the expansion has been relentless- villages bulldozed and torched, ancient olive groves and agricultural land torched- new towns built with sewerage being poured onto ancient Palestinian villages, constant attacks on people, families and children- humiliation, cruel and constant.

Please instruct yourself before shaming others

remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html

watch- the expansion, on, and on, and on.

Iam64

Vintagewhine - who could mediate? I wish I could think of an individual or group that could get these two sides to seriously find a way to coexist

Goodness knows but I don't think Hamas is open to negotiation nor the current Israeli govt. Netanyahu is trying to form a coalition govt in preparation for a full scale invasion of Gaza, I think. The cynical part of me thinks that Netanyahu already wanted a reason to invade and was complicit in allowing Hamas to commit these atrocities. Nothing like war to prop up a shaky govt.

If Hamas is Isis then I fear even more for the poor Palestinian people. it is absolutely unthinkable

Benjamin Netanyahu has pledged to crush Hamas as he compared the terrorist group to Islamic State.

The Israeli prime minister’s remarks came after he said he had no choice but to invade Gaza and as the West warned allies of Hamas to stand down.

Speaking in English, Mr Netanyahu said: “The atrocities committed by Hamas have not been seen since Isis atrocities.

“Bound children executed along with their families. Young men and women shot in the back, executed. Other horrors I won’t describe here.

“We have always known who Hamas is. Now the entire world knows. Hamas is ISIS. (The Telegraph Newspaper today)

Vintagewhine - who could mediate? I wish I could think of an individual or group that could get these two sides to seriously find a way to coexist

The heads of govts who are supporting Israel keep using the word "proportional". Cutting off food and water to 2.5m people and then bombing them, doesn't seem proportional to me. Many people in Gaza don't support Hamas, many Jews living in Israel and abroad do not support Netanyahu and his far right govt and the combination of these vile people has completely wrecked any chance of peace.

I just despair.
When two such implacable enemies provoke conflict with each other what can anybody do?
There is strong support for Israel from the US as there would be and for the Palestinians in the Middle East, the oil producing countries and elsewhere. So other major powers are perforce drawn in and frankly I cannot see negotiation or diplomacy defusing the conflict at this stage.
I fear for the future.

It is terrible all starting off again. I lived in Damascus for a while and sadly could not go to Bethlehem for christmas . You could not at that time use the same passport to go to arab countries and israel. You had to fly to cyprus, use a different passport and go to Israel and come back in the same way,That was 40 years ago and things have not improved since.It is all very sad and worrying and as you say the civilians in both areas are the victims. Very sad all round, and knowing that th likes of Putin are hovering in the bachground stirring up trouble does not help. Mind you this country cannot talk as we make weapons and sell them to whoever makes up a profit!! i think of the poor civilians in any conflict who are subject to the dreadful consequences of any war.

The ease that Hamas broke through the supposed impregnable fence and the relaxed state of the army, might lead a cynic to think the Israelis allowed an attack as an excuse to invade Gaza.

Hamas had become very strong, the intelligence service must have known but someone did not act to strengthen security

MayBee70

maddyone

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Well you should be ashamed of your ignorance then.

The Rest is Politics gives a balanced discussion about the conflict. It’s really worth listening to. And it does point out how Palestinians are crammed into a small area of land. It is like a huge concentration camp.

Also ruled with a rod of iron, by hamas dictators

maddyone

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Well you should be ashamed of your ignorance then.

The Rest is Politics gives a balanced discussion about the conflict. It’s really worth listening to. And it does point out how Palestinians are crammed into a small area of land. It is like a huge concentration camp.

specki4eyes - we’ll never be able to counteract that as long as there are humans, religion and politics there will be wars, some world wars. Sickening.

Elon Musk created SpaceX, built his own rockets and continues to make rockets that will take him and his family to Mars - after we all annihilate each other here on earth.
(I’m currently reading his biography which came out two weeks ago - fascinating read!)
Missiles used in this conflict are mini rockets - true.
USA Gundy

Iam64

Dinahmo, apologies if you felt I was repeating things you know well. It’s such a difficult thing to discuss because people often take polarised angry positions.
It’s easy to blame the Balfour Declaration in 1917, supporting the establishment of a home for Jewish people in Palestine, then the 1948 declaration ‘nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine’. Ww2/the Holocaust inevitably increased the need surviving Jewish people felt for a safe homeland.

The current Israeli govt is a nightmare, none of my Jewish friends support it.

Thank you for your balanced perspective and understanding of the importance of the historical position Iam. It is interesting to note that many people, not just on here, simply have so little knowledge of how we have arrived at this point. Many only look at the last 75 years or so, which puts absolutely nothing into perspective. In this particular case, history is everything. It’s all so sad. I’ve seen reports tonight of two things that just stuck in my mind. One of the killing of two young Jewish parents, who had managed to hide their ten month old twins before the terrorists broke into their home, and killed the parents outright. The beautiful babies survived. But their parents are dead. The other was a picture of a father running into the road holding his baby daughter in his arms, covered in blood. She looked about a year old maybe. The child was terribly injured in a bombing in Gaza.
It’s the children. They don’t even know which side they are on.
Suffer the little children to come unto me.
Said by the Jew, Jesus Christ.

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Well you should be ashamed of your ignorance then.