Hamas has attacked Israel

GrannyGravy13

London today, Jewish people and their businesses already under attack.

Oh my God.
Crystal night, November 1938.
Oh my God.
I could weep.

Callistemon21

Hamas wants to form a Muslim State.

What would happen to the Palestinian Christians? Would they be persecuted too?

No doubt they would.
Christians are persecuted and murdered all over the world, but especially in Pakistan.
When I was teaching, a Christian family arrived at my school, having fled religious persecution.
They had come from India.
I have absolutely no doubt that Christians would be persecuted in many Arab states. Their values would not be respected, nor would their religion. And in many Arab states, those of you on here who are white European in heritage, would find no truck in those states. You would be classed as Christian, like it or lump it, and treated accordingly.

Anyway, I digress.
As you were.

It’s a great pity because I remember Yasser Arafat leader of Fatah who accepted Israel’s existence and wanted peace but Israel would not take the opportunity to talk and treated him with some distain.
Then after Arafat died and Hamas was elected the opportunity was lost and we get to this tragic point.
It is truly terrible fir all concerned but over the years It is noticeable that whenever thousands of Palestinians have been killed , and there were thousands, little if anything at all is reported about it.
It’s clear who has always had the support of most of the world and it saddens me that Palestinian lives and struggles over the last 75 years is known by so few.
I feel for all who wont sleep tonight, because we all understand the pain, sadly I t will get much worse. More will die senselessly. A tragic waste,

It is almost impossible to watch the news today.

Fleurpepper

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Thank you Aveline. If a group of people, religious, political or ethnic, or whatever- behaves appallingly towards another, everyone is allowed to say it- irrespective of their own religious, political or ethnicity, etc.

Oh good. Thank you for the permission.

Hamas is behaving appallingly.
Not all Palestinians support them.

There’s a new The Rest is Politics podcast about it. Going to listen now….

Aveline

I'm happy to lecture Israel about their long term bullying of Palestinians.

Thank you Aveline. If a group of people, religious, political or ethnic, or whatever- behaves appallingly towards another, everyone is allowed to say it- irrespective of their own religious, political or ethnicity, etc.

Sadly this - or something like it - was destined to happen with this right-wing government.

As for the 'men!' comment, I'm sure it was not flippant. It is men who perpetrate the great majority of atrocities (and it's quite hard for a woman to commit actual rape). However, women can also be warlike. The matrifocal societies that probably existed before written history were not pacifist.

As someone that was in Birmingham at the time of the pub bombings I was so relieved when the troubles ended; I was no longer terrified of my teenage children going into town. But then everything seemed to get so much worse. I remember when it was the year 2,000 someone saying 'all the gates to heaven and hell are open at this time' and that's what seemed to happen. All the little things we're trying to do to help the environment seem such a waste of time when wars are happening everywhere.

You’re right Callistemon. We all lived through The Troubles. The Good Friday Agreement to cross party determination and commitment to change. Imperfect of course and there are still idiots / bigots /criminal gangs who don’t want the fragile peace to hold

Maybee There has rarely been a time since WW2 when there has not been conflict or a war somewhere in the world.

Not that that is any consolation, but just to put it all in perspective. ☹

Dinahmo, apologies if you felt I was repeating things you know well. It’s such a difficult thing to discuss because people often take polarised angry positions.
It’s easy to blame the Balfour Declaration in 1917, supporting the establishment of a home for Jewish people in Palestine, then the 1948 declaration ‘nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine’. Ww2/the Holocaust inevitably increased the need surviving Jewish people felt for a safe homeland.

The current Israeli govt is a nightmare, none of my Jewish friends support it.

Whenever there's a war which results in boundary changes it seems to lead to another war. After one war [I or II, we were responsible for setting up borders in countries where people had always lived as nomads]. There have been many periods of history during which people of different religions have co existed peacefully. I just don't know where all this is now leading or who is behind it; someone is pulling strings somewhere. Hitler rose to power because of the way we tried to crush Germany after WWI. I can't believe that this is the world that I've brought children and grandchildren into. I'm so afraid for them. How can anyone, on either side of this conflict ever forgive the other side if you've lost a loved one. I couldn't. Treating people in a sub human way for many years leads to terrorism. I saw a program on channel 84[?] about how long it took to set up the state of Israel; it was all very long and protracted and complicated. It's a diversion from Ukraine though, taking the spotlight away from that and Putin is calling for a cease fire between Israel and Palestine. [apologies for this; I'm just thinking out loud and trying to make some sort of sense of something that is senseless].

I have been to Israel several times.I wholly support Israel as Hamas is dedicated to wiping Israel off the map, and everyone Jewish.I have visited a Palestinian refugee camp, its not a camp, its a town, buildings , walled with gates because Israel got sick of suicide bombers so they built the walls and checkpoints. Hamas and its supporters have only themselves to blame for any plight they are in.Terrorists, murderers.

varian

What is the point of religion? It seems to just cause divisions all over the world. Is religion just an excuse for tribalism or is it a catalyst?

Religious adherence gave the elite power over the population. In many cases this has evolved into democracy of some kind but there are still religions that seek to rule every aspect of life of the population. By force of arms they are spreading quickly.

Humza Yousaf has said that his parents-in-law are trapped in Gaza; they went there to visit elderly relatives.

It is always the civilians on both sides who suffer.

Thanks Iam64

I knew quite a lot about the treatment of Jewish over hundreds of years but wanted to know what other people thought.

For those of you who don't now the book, The Hare With the Amber Eyes by Edmond de Waal. It covers the history of his family from mid 19thC to the 20thC. A grain merchant and banker in Odessa sends his two sons to Paris and Vienna to set up banks. They become incredibly wealthy and then WW1 happens. The financial rise and fall of a family. Well worth a read.

What is the point of religion? It seems to just cause divisions all over the world. Is religion just an excuse for tribalism or is it a catalyst?

Iam64

The situation is so entrenched. It needs both sides to negotiate effectively. Who can be peacemaker

Who is neutral?

The situation is so entrenched. It needs both sides to negotiate effectively. Who can be peacemaker

Are people forgetting that in 1947 the Jews were the terrorists. My fathers cousin was one of the British soldiers that they killed. There were two groups of Jewish terrorists the the leader of one of these groups became prime minister of that country when it was given to the Jews by the UN. The Gaza strip is a glorified concentration camp.

I am Anglo-Saxon-Viking etc and according to Ancestry I am 1 percent Jewish.

The atrocities being committed are beyond understanding.

Dinahmo

Yes but why?

Consult Google where you’ll find analysis if early and continuing anti semitism.
Jesus and the apostles were Jews. Most other Jews rejected them. The Church was inclined to blame ‘the Jews’ for the crucifixion, then the Romans. The Church forbade Jews to own land. So Jewish people developed ways of work that meant they could carry their tools, including money. Interestingly, there was literacy in the Jewish communities, often including women.
As the ghettos were opened in the 19th century, Jews entered mainstream European society. They were active in the arts, media, medicine, law, banking (like now). Some resented this, myths grew up that Jews controlled money and were a negative dominant group.

The best history of anti semitism I’ve ever seen is shown at the Jewish Museum in Berlin.

It’s an interesting question, why anti semitism>. It could be seen as blaming Jews for the oppression they’ve faced

What do you think gives us the right?

Glorianny

Fleurpepper

Oreo

What religious differences do you think there were between the Normans and the Saxons Fleurpepper?
They were all very religious, following the Catholic Christian faith.
One of my Saxon ancestors left a note for posterity saying he was never going to call pigmeat ‘porc’ for any Norman bastard, 😂 but that’s as far as it went.

Talking about invasions from always. the Celts were not Christians, and neither were the Vikings.

Oh yes the Celts were there was a distinctly different set of dates for the Celtic christian church. It caused such bother that a special Synod was held in Whitby in 645 where it was greed the dates of the RC church would be adopted.
The Celts also allowed women more say in church matters than RCs

By 500AD there were many Christian’s and by 1066 almost the whole of Northern Europe was Christian including the Vikings, by that time they ruled from Scandinavia to the Atlantic coast. They weren’t one entity they were local warlords of which William was one of the more successful leaders.

The English were pretty much dispossessed and subdued within 20 yrs, which did not stop the Normans fighting each other for the next 400yrs