Hamas has attacked Israel

People on the left do not "dismiss" Israel. They see that only compromise will ever bring peace to the region, and that compromise means the dominant power surrendering some of its control. It also involves talking to all the parties concerned and developing a peace process.

Katie59

Callistemon21

Southern England to the Saxons and Angles?
They're still here 🙂

And we’ve been ruled by the Normans ever since - we got used to it and there was no religious issue.

No religious issue? Wow, you are jesting I hope.

No, I really don’t think Starmer is anything like Corbyn.
Corbyn only saw the Palestinian cause and dismissed Israel like many on the left did/do.
I think Starmer will see both sides of the picture and very much sympathise with Israel and what has just happened there with the aggressors Hamas.

Whatever the historical rights and wrongs, and there are both I think, we are where we are.
Hamas have just made things 100 times worse now for the Palestinian people.
Hamas have no intention to accept peaceful means to end the situation with Israel, which in the end is the only way forward.
The more they show Israel how much they hate it the less chance of any land or power sharing for the future there is.
The Palestinian people voted for Hamas and must now be regretting it.

Nicenanny3

Jeremy Corbyn who Starmer supported to be our next Prime Minister counts Hamas as his friends, so I'm assuming Starmer did as well, imagine if Corbyn was our PM now.

Just what I was about to post Nicenanny3.

Palestine was among former Ottoman territories placed under UK administration by the League of Nations in 1922

In 1947, the UK turned the Palestine problem over to the UN

1947 – 1977: Partition plan, 1948, 1967, 1973 wars, inalienable rights

After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947).

www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=In%201947%2C%20the%20UK%20turned,Read%20more.&text=After%20looking%20at%20alternatives%2C%20the,(II)%20of%201947).

MayBee70

I’m not excusing Hamas but some really scary things are happening in Israel at the moment and they have, I believe, been quite aggressive towards Palestine. There’s no end to it, is there

Whilst Hamas should be condemned absolutely, no doubt about that, just a reminder that Israelis went to their land, violated all UN resolutions and still extend their land with illegal settlements, expelling Palestinians, creating modern apartheid, imprisoning and executing anyone who thinks to resist them.
This attack was inevitable I think.

Netanyahoo is a war monger and certainly not the right person for the job. Many Israeli’s support or supported Palestinians, a small percentage of whom, are Christian approx 74,000.

I watch a lot of Al Jazeera and despite the name, they do not push Islam down one’s throat and tell it how it is.

If you had read my post more carefully Fleurpepper you would see that I referred to 'harking back' to the Holocaust as well as the Nakba. I was deliberately even-handed in that regard.

The problem can't be solved by re-telling history and recollections vary.

Hamas has vowed to destroy Israel so presumably won't compromise over the land.

Ills not bills
Autocorrect

maddyone

Callistemon21

I think people may not realise that Palestine is the historical home of the Jewish people.

Jesus of Palestine was a Jew.
It was ruled by Rome at the time.

Thankfully you do know the history of Palestine Callistemon. I did point it out last night but it was pretty well ignored. I’m absolutely sure that many people have little, or no, knowledge of the history. The Jews lived in Palestine for centuries. That was their homeland. But they were driven out of their homeland by the other tribes, and I believe Nebuchadnezzar. This is all ancient history of course. The Jewish people, after being driven out of their homeland, settled in Europe and other countries. In Europe they were persecuted for centuries, and there were frequent pogroms against the Jews and they had to continually move to supposed safer places. This all ended in Europe with the Holocaust, after which the Jews realised they needed their own homeland back, as living in other countries wasn’t safe. The more modern history, post 1945, tells us how they fought to establish their own homeland again. I really do wish people would understand the whole, very complicated truth. As someone upthread said, the history of Israel goes back to 1947. No! It goes back centuries and the Jewish people have every right to live in the land that was taken, by force, from them.

A good precis, maddyone

Until WW1 the area was part of the Ottoman Empire, I believe (those Turkish colonialists)!
However, it is so easy to blame the British colonialists for all the bills of that area.

I suppose it could be argued that Here Hitler is the reason for the creation of Israel. No Hitler, no WW2, No Holocaust. Perhaps this is too simplistic, but after centuries of being pushed from one hostile country to another,it was realised after WW2 that the Jewish people needed their own safe homeland to escape future persecution. Surely it's Jesus of Nazareth? not that it makes any difference. It's true that Israel is perhaps over defensive,but having been persecuted so appallingly for so many centuries and surrounded by peoples who wish you dead, it's little wonder that Israel takes a hard line in order to defend themselves. This time I'm afraid the wrath of God will be a misnomer.

Thank you for this link.

Luckygirl
Not just the British. The French had a big hand in it.

www.routledgehandbooks.com/pdf/doi/10.4324/9780429317873-4#:~:text=During%20the%20two%20years%20that,portions%20of%20south%2Deastern%20Turkey.

I feel very ignorant about the situation politically and geographically and have been looking up some of the history (a subject that I did not study at school). It looks as though British colonialism is behind the genesis of all this.

I, like everyone else, am appalled by the horrifying reports. No grievance justifies this.

Curtaintwicher, Forgive me for stating the obvious - my town, like other former cotton towns in the north west, has a large population of people who follow the Muslim faith. Their ancestors were invited here from Pakistan and India in the 1950’s to work in the cotton mills. They weren’t ‘allowed’ they were invited.

Our imperial heritage, like that of Germany, France and other European countries means there are historical links with countries where the Muslim faith exists.

Curtaintwitcher
If the formidable intelligence unit, Mossad didn’t see this coming, nobody could have.
I find this highly questionable as rumours are now coming out that this attack has been in the planning for a year.

08:20Curtaintwitcher

Britain and America are seen as allies of Israel, and this makes us a legitimate target for attacks by supporters of Palestinians. I wonder if our politicians are now waking up to how foolish and short-sighted it was to allow large numbers of Muslims to settle in Europe?
Anyone with common sense would have foreseen the current events and realised the danger we were putting ourselves in.

I agree Curtaintwitcher

I don't think any of us will sing 'O little town of Bethlehem' and other Christmas carols with quite the same feeling as in previous years.

curtaintwitcher that comment is just hate-mongering and beneath contempt.

Jeremy Corbyn who Starmer supported to be our next Prime Minister counts Hamas as his friends, so I'm assuming Starmer did as well, imagine if Corbyn was our PM now.

Whitewavemark2

fancythat

maddyone

Callistemon21

I think people may not realise that Palestine is the historical home of the Jewish people.

Jesus of Palestine was a Jew.
It was ruled by Rome at the time.

Thankfully you do know the history of Palestine Callistemon. I did point it out last night but it was pretty well ignored. I’m absolutely sure that many people have little, or no, knowledge of the history. The Jews lived in Palestine for centuries. That was their homeland. But they were driven out of their homeland by the other tribes, and I believe Nebuchadnezzar. This is all ancient history of course. The Jewish people, after being driven out of their homeland, settled in Europe and other countries. In Europe they were persecuted for centuries, and there were frequent pogroms against the Jews and they had to continually move to supposed safer places. This all ended in Europe with the Holocaust, after which the Jews realised they needed their own homeland back, as living in other countries wasn’t safe. The more modern history, post 1945, tells us how they fought to establish their own homeland again. I really do wish people would understand the whole, very complicated truth. As someone upthread said, the history of Israel goes back to 1947. No! It goes back centuries and the Jewish people have every right to live in the land that was taken, by force, from them.

The history is documented in the Bible.

The Bible also says, the issue will never be resolved.

The bible is also part of a transitory culture, as is the Koran, and other written works. Not in many generations lifetime, but in human lifetime, we have seen and will continue to see many and vast changes to our cultural life.

Culture life yes.

The Bible is not changable. Nor God.

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

fancythat

maddyone

Callistemon21

I think people may not realise that Palestine is the historical home of the Jewish people.

Jesus of Palestine was a Jew.
It was ruled by Rome at the time.

Thankfully you do know the history of Palestine Callistemon. I did point it out last night but it was pretty well ignored. I’m absolutely sure that many people have little, or no, knowledge of the history. The Jews lived in Palestine for centuries. That was their homeland. But they were driven out of their homeland by the other tribes, and I believe Nebuchadnezzar. This is all ancient history of course. The Jewish people, after being driven out of their homeland, settled in Europe and other countries. In Europe they were persecuted for centuries, and there were frequent pogroms against the Jews and they had to continually move to supposed safer places. This all ended in Europe with the Holocaust, after which the Jews realised they needed their own homeland back, as living in other countries wasn’t safe. The more modern history, post 1945, tells us how they fought to establish their own homeland again. I really do wish people would understand the whole, very complicated truth. As someone upthread said, the history of Israel goes back to 1947. No! It goes back centuries and the Jewish people have every right to live in the land that was taken, by force, from them.

The history is documented in the Bible.

The Bible also says, the issue will never be resolved.

The bible is also part of a transitory culture, as is the Koran, and other written works. Not in many generations lifetime, but in human lifetime, we have seen and will continue to see many and vast changes to our cultural life.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

A suppressed group of people often produce radical means with dreadful acts, to try to throw off their shackles.

Closer to home we have witnessed this in our lifetime -the IRA. (A proscribed terrorist group) Peace was only brought about by the Labour government through recognising the call for justice by Sine Fein.

The following is a paragraph taken from Liberty’s report on the UN and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

“In March, 2022 the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the OPT determined that the “political system of entrenched rule” in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip “satisfies the prevailing evidentiary standard for the existence of apartheid”. In November, the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing reached the same conclusion in relation to Israel’s policies of home demolitions. Some states, including South Africa, condemned Israeli apartheid, echoing statements by Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations. Despite this growing recognition, Israel continued to enjoy impunity thanks to the support of its key allies”.

I find what is happening in that region utterly abhorrent, from both sides, but until all the many wrongs are addressed and dealt with, this is never ever going to heal, unless Israel wipe the Palestinians out entirely.