Hamas has attacked Israel

A different perspective emerges by looking at Hamas. For what does it do with power? That’s right: rather than focusing on growth, rational administration and the needs of its people, its priority is religious indoctrination. One recent report (among many) found that schools across the West Bank and Gaza Strip “regularly call for the murder of Jews, and create teaching materials that glorify terrorism, encourage martyrdom and incite antisemitism”. This is how it is possible for a religious cult to sustain what is euphemistically referred to as “popular legitimacy”.

And that is why many “solutions” to this problem are confused. Good people think that progress can be made with diplomacy or reconfiguring borders. They are, I fear, looking at the issue through the wrong lens. Until the virus of fundamentalism is contained, until its mechanisms of transmission are severed, this is futile. It is why it was nonsense when “experts” (including Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser) told us — until last Saturday — that conflict in the Middle East had been contained. Had they not seen what was happening in Iran, Yemen, Lebanon and beyond? Had they not noticed the covert but ceaseless work of the madrassas and other machines of indoctrination?

Turning to Israel, I dearly hope it exercises restraint. It is in Israelis’ self-interest to do so to avoid igniting a wider war and thereby walking into the trap set by Iran. It would show the world that they are willing to go the extra mile to avoid killing civilians; that unlike their opponents, who murder out of conviction, they kill only as a last resort — and often because innocents are disgracefully used by Hamas as human shields. It would also signal that voices of moderation still hold sway in a state that has been moving towards its own kind of extremism under Binyamin Netanyahu’s coalition. Let me suggest that none of these aims were furthered by the appalling strike yesterday on a convoy fleeing south, killing up to 70 people, including children.

In the end, though, we have to face up to the truth that this conflict will end only when the germ of fanaticism is expunged from the Middle East, a prospect sadly no closer now than in 1948.
“The fundamentalist believes that we believe in nothing. In his world-view, he has his absolute certainties, while we are sunk in sybaritic indulgences. To prove him wrong, we must first know that he is wrong.” So wrote Salman Rushdie in the weeks after 9/11. The words are worth pondering as this terrible tragedy unfolds.

The above two posts are a copy of the Matthew Syrd article

Towards the end of the BBC news on Friday evening, a small item appeared long after the coverage of the Middle East had ended. It told of Mohamed Mogouchkov, an immigrant in France, who had stabbed a teacher to death and seriously wounded two other staff at a school in Arras, in the north of the country. As he wielded the blade, he is reported to have cried out: “Allahu Akbar” — God is great.

Those were the words used three years ago by an 18-year-old Muslim refugee who decapitated Samuel Paty, another teacher, in Éragny-sur-Oise, a suburb of Paris. The same words were used on the streets of Woolwich by the murderers of Lee Rigby, a fusilier with an impeccable service record and two-year-old son. The words were used by Isis as they maimed, raped and mutilated victims, often videoing their atrocities so they could showcase their handiwork to a horrified world.

And these were (I imagine) the words used by Hamas terrorists (yes, let us use the term) during their atrocities in Israel last weekend, in which women were violated, babies mutilated and hostages taken into Gaza, including a Holocaust survivor, traumatised children and a 17-year-old girl who suffers from muscular dystrophy.

One of the missing pieces in the analysis of events has been what Christopher Hitchens called the “virus” of fundamentalism, the way religious conviction is often the most potent weapon of barbarity. How could Hamas operatives have behaved in the way they did? Why did they inflict such gratuitous damage? In his novel The Prague Cemetery, Umberto Eco put it with precision: “People are never so completely and enthusiastically evil as when they act out of religious conviction.”

Fundamentalists lack that most civilising of human virtues: doubt. They have absolute truth, the certified word of God, so they are not merely justified in slaughtering infidels; they would be failing in their duty if they did not do so. If Hamas had the chance to kill more Jews, all Jews, they would seize it. Isn’t this the story of religious fanaticism throughout the ages, and not just the Islamic kind? Catholics burning Protestants in 16th century England cried out: “Oh, this is for the greater glory of God!”

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For some reason westerners struggle with these truths. When al-Qaeda visited carnage upon the World Trade Center, academic sociologists tied themselves in knots to deny the hijackers were motivated by religion. They said that these men were alienated, or were undereducated, or hadn’t had much sex, or were reacting against western suppression. When it turned out that many terrorists had university degrees and plenty of sex, and had benefited from western societies, new surrogate motives were found. Anything, in fact, to avoid taking these men at their word, many of whom made videos explicitly stating that they were murdering to “bring glory to Allah”.

The same dubious dance has taken place over recent days, people rushing to signal their support for the Palestinian cause in Gaza hours after the military wing of their leadership visited unspeakable atrocities. The problem was that these people were hemmed in or didn’t have enough land. Even those of us who worry deeply about Israeli excesses should be able to see that this rests on a category error. Do we think that Isis would have been tamed if it had been offered a neatly carved out territory in the Levant? Or do we think — as Isis explicitly boasted — that it would have used any advantage, territorial or otherwise, to escalate bloody jihad?

To reiterate, I have severe doubts about the Israeli response, but I think it is worth pondering the point often made that the retribution visited on Gaza (the full ground assault may be under way as you read these words) will kill innocent people, particularly children. Indeed, many have already died in this pitiless war. As one Times reader, by no means an antisemite, put it on Friday morning: “Hamas is not the Palestinian people.”

That is true, but it illuminates another little-analysed aspect of this unfolding tragedy. According to Jennifer Jefferis, a Middle East expert at Georgetown University who spoke to the BBC last week, Hamas consistently polls over 50 per cent (more than any other party) across Gaza and the West Bank. Apologists claim this is Israel’s fault: that Palestinians are driven into the hands of Hamas by the actions of the Jewish state, just as Isis apologists said that its atrocities were incited by the “Great Satan” of America. There is, I suppose, a particular kind of liberal who can’t see an evil in the world without detecting western civilisation or a Jewish conspiracy as the root cause.

I will start a second thread as the situation is continuing

Callistemon21

Aveline

I just posted what I read on CNN news. Civilians being told to take cover.

In Israel too, presumably as Hezbollah have been firing rockets on Israeli targets for several days.

Yes, certainly in Northern Israel; my brother and his family have been sleeping in their 'safe' room overnight for a week now.
Hezbollah are getting involved of course, backed by the Iranians again.

Israel has turned the water back on in Southern Gaza, maybe to create a 'safe zone while they launch a ground attack on the North of Gaza to attempt to clear out the Hamas stocks of ammunition and destroy the warren of underground tunnels that give ease of movement and shelter to these terrorists.

garnet25

I hope this link works www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccine-religious-fundamentalism-no-peace-israel-gaza-war-hamas-comment-593gxthxn
It is an excellent article by Matthew Syed in today's Sunday Times about how religious fundamentalism is at the root cause of what is happening.

Sadly behind pay wall. Could you copy and paste perhaps?

Thank you, will read it aftr posting here the comments of someone I really respect, and with a great deal of experience of this conflict- when being pushed about 'what should Israel actually DO' - he is so right

''Lift the siege on Gaza, end the occupation, free the hundreds of Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons (for throwing rocks), halt and reverse illegal settlements, abide by UN resolutions, respect International Law etc.. the list is long and difficult but its the hard yards necessary for peace.

Peace and prosperity definitely suits the Palestinians, weary after 75 years of conflict and worsening conditions. The most recent poll of Gazans suggest that 64% would vote for Fateh, sweeping Hamas from power and the stranglehold it has. The question is whether Israel actually wants a just peace, or whether they simply want acquiescence of an occupied people. In the eyes of hard liners there is nothing to be gained from peace other than losing more land, so stalling the peace process and kicking the can down the road serves them well. Some of the more unhinged members of Netanyahu's cabinet have even called for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, to neighbouring countries.

Some blame Arafat for not backing the Oslo accords, but the reality was that what was presented to the Palestinians was the land equivalent of Swiss cheese. A Palestinian State pot marked with illegal settlements and heavily fortified roads linking them. As he said himself, if I sign this I will be assassinated as a traitor tomorrow. The assassinations of Egypt's President Sadat and Israel's PM Rabin by their own, testify to that fact.''

I hope this link works www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vaccine-religious-fundamentalism-no-peace-israel-gaza-war-hamas-comment-593gxthxn
It is an excellent article by Matthew Syed in today's Sunday Times about how religious fundamentalism is at the root cause of what is happening.

Hamas fire rockets from heavily populated areas into Israeli cities - no warning. It is still happening every day.
Can you imagine if this happened on a daily basis in London, Manchester, Glasgow?

Are you aware that targets in Gaza city were always preceded by a warning? An extremely loud detonator is dropped onto a building, loud but causing no damage. People have twenty minutes to leave the building.

I know twenty minutes sounds dreadful and it is however, at least a warning has been given. Some of those leaving the building will be terrorists.....

There have also been written leaflets. All terrible, I know but Israel needs to clean out the sites which are being used to launch weapons against them/offices where murder is planned.

You may notice on the news that in the main (and I am not blasé about this and yes, local people will have been killed) the targets that the Israelis hit in Gaza are precise. They take out a whole building, leaving those beside intact. They know their targets and need to cleanse these sites.

Who would have rocket launchers in the middle of a populated area?

Hamas have little regard for their own population but are powerful so it is difficult for the local populous to fight them in as much as 'we don't want rockets fired/ammunitions stored in our block' etc.

The above may help explain just why Israel wants to go in to Gaza.

Israel has been trying to minimise civilian casualties and please remember, this is war.

The press coverage suggests that Israel is out for pure revenge. Actually, if they were, who could blame them but no, they are bombing targeted buildings in Gaza, those used for violent purposes - not homes and apartments as has happened in Ukraine .

Barmyoldbat's analogy seems to fit the situation quite well.

Barmeyoldbat

Silver lining I agree with you, I also feel that the Palestinians have had a raw deal from Israel, who to my mind have acted like the bully boys in a playground.

Some of the analogies on this thread have been a little off beam to say the least!

Silver lining I agree with you, I also feel that the Palestinians have had a raw deal from Israel, who to my mind have acted like the bully boys in a playground.

Aveline

I just posted what I read on CNN news. Civilians being told to take cover.

In Israel too, presumably as Hezbollah have been firing rockets on Israeli targets for several days.

I just posted what I read on CNN news. Civilians being told to take cover.

silverlining48

It’s nearly the end of this thread and I wanted to say it’s clear how passionate many of us are. I have followed this for many decades and have always felt the palestinians have had a hard deal but also understand that Jews need security given their recent past.
I abhor racists of any kind and for any Jews or Muslims reading I want to send greetings and good wishes. X

Well said, silverlining

There is agony on both sides of the border.

Let us hope this doesn't escalate further.
The UN should step in but they couldn't even agree on a statement!

Oh, it's a case of how you tell 'em.

So not really a case of Israel army deciding to attack Lebanon; defending themselves if Hezbollah have attacked them.

It’s this biased posting that isn’t helping.

Hezbollah have admitted firing missiles at Israeli military targets.

Israel have fired back at Hezbollah bases.

Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation

Aveline

Israeli army now attacking Lebanon. What next?!!

Do you think they are targeting Hezbolah who have been launching missiles into Israel?

Israeli army now attacking Lebanon. What next?!!

So do I. But sadly, this is very unlikely to be the end of this thread, as the conflict is unlikely to end soon. Those poor poor people.

silverlinings48

I second your post

It’s nearly the end of this thread and I wanted to say it’s clear how passionate many of us are. I have followed this for many decades and have always felt the palestinians have had a hard deal but also understand that Jews need security given their recent past.
I abhor racists of any kind and for any Jews or Muslims reading I want to send greetings and good wishes. X

For me and our purposes now, 100 years is probably a good enough start to understand how we got to the current situation which brought on the horrific events of last Saturday and I thought amnesties report would be a good starter.

I will leave the 2000 year history for others to study.

MerylStreep

silverlining48

Please look at amnesty international report online which may explain the current situation in a straightforward uncomplicated way.
It would be of interest to anyone who wants to learn more about the history to this, because it does go much further back than last week.
We are living in dangerous times.
Sorry I don’t have the tech ability to attach.

Roughly about 2,000 years.

And, ironically, a shared DNA heritage.
Jews and Palestinians are more alike than most people think.

It is religion and culture which are the cause of differences.

It's just that 'read more' is a fairly common approach used by some people towards those who hold different views.
There is quite a complex history around amnesty itself on this issue, and on other subjects for that matter ( prostitution, abortion as well if I remember rightly)