Israel, Hamas and now Hezbollah

Hold on. It was perfectly fine to say that Starmer couldnt be trusted on the subject because his wife is Jewish.

There’s getting to be some stupid wokery now on this thread.
There was nothing wrong with what Sunak said when in Israel, unless a person prefers that Hamas comes out on top.
You can say that Biden makes gaffes, which he does now and then, but not Sunak.Johnson would have tho, you can bet your boots on it.

growstuff

Despite abhorrence at Saudi's human rights record, I also think we need to be talking to them too. They're strong and rich and the world would be in real trouble, if they started openly supporting terrorism. Remember what happened when everybody thought getting rid of Saddam Hussein would solve any problems.

Yes, human rights in Saudi dont meet international standards nor do ANY other nations in the Middle East, they have to have authoritarian rule to maintain order. The west removed Saddam Hussein and plunged the whole region into chaos, democracy does not exist its about who has the most guns.

Moreover much of the hostility is Sunni v Shia Islam and nothing to do with others, that applies to Palestine currently.

growstuff

maddyone If you think comments about paediatricians being biased because they're Muslims are ordinary "gran speech", I despair about grans.

Well perhaps, but I’m not sure it qualifies as hate speech, maybe biased as you say, but not hate speech.

We imported £19.3b from Arab states, it's no wonder that Sunak is visiting Saudi Arabia, he's probably worried about your fuel bills this winter! This is not a single issue problem and it's obvious to anyone who takes the time to do any research that Western countries have a very complicated relationship with these countries. We may not like their govts, they might not like us either but we are all part of a world economy and to some extent are co-dependent. It's also interesting to see how Sunak's speech has been edited depending on who is doing the reporting, the BBC
changed part of his speech later in the day omitting the part where he said the Palestinians were also victims! He and Biden were both treading a careful diplomatic line of supporting Israel whilst trying to keep themselves distanced from any illegal practices.

I am rather shocked Katie59 by your comment, "The majority of Muslims either passively or actively do support terrorist aims, particularly Israel’s right to exist."
There are nearly 2billion Muslims in the world and the "majority" do not support terrorism, they find it as abhorrent as you and I. It is absolutely against the practices of Islam, sadly what these terrorist groups say and do in the name of "Islam" is an abomination and IME that is recognised by most Muslims. I say this as someone who worked very closely with Muslim communities in one of our cities and also with Muslim refugees from Bosnia and Afghanistan in the 1980/90's
www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/09/193bn-of-fossil-fuels-imported-by-uk-from-authoritarian-states-in-year-since-ukraine-war

Thank you Whitewave. Exactly! You always sum up what I’m trying to say so succinctly.

It is not Hamas who will win it is Iran, Russia and China - that is when we will need to construct a safe room.

maddyone If you think comments about paediatricians being biased because they're Muslims are ordinary "gran speech", I despair about grans.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Let's be clear about what Israel's aims are as far as Palestinians are concerned, they want them gone. They are prepared to behave in ways which contravene human rights in order to achieve their aim. They don't particularly care if they immigrate, are killed or just reduced to such levels of poverty that just existing is difficult, as long as their numbers
are reduced.

The statement about the letter from the Paediatricians is disgusting hate speech

And Hamas’s aims are?

Don't quite know what that has to do with my statement.
But actually Hamas's aims have shifted over the years. They established a political wing and have agreed to a two state solution
After more than a decade of rejecting the foundational principles of the PA, Hamas ran in the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections and subsequently participated in the PA, with indications that it would accept agreements between Israel and the PA. Since then, senior Hamas leaders have stated their willingness to support a two-state solution based on pre-1967 borders. In A Document of General Principles and Policies issued in 2017, the organization acknowledged “the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled” as a “formula of national consensus.”
There are of course still some very radical leaders who want the fighting to continue.
The reason the Hamas administration failed in Gaza was because Iran withdrew financial support

"Let’s try to not be one sided."

Oh, the irony!

Glorianny

Let's be clear about what Israel's aims are as far as Palestinians are concerned, they want them gone. They are prepared to behave in ways which contravene human rights in order to achieve their aim. They don't particularly care if they immigrate, are killed or just reduced to such levels of poverty that just existing is difficult, as long as their numbers
are reduced.

The statement about the letter from the Paediatricians is disgusting hate speech

Oh dear, I despair when I see comments like these. The comments about the paediatricians are not hate speech, they are comments from perfectly ordinary grans on a discussion forum. We are discussing a very difficult situation.

It is probably true that the Israelis would like the Palestinians ‘gone’ after the terror attack last week, however Hamas and probably many other supporters of Hamas, have as a declared intent, the ridding of every Jew in Israel. Let’s try to not be one sided.

LizzieDrip

^Hamas has to lose, it is unthinkable for a terrorist organisation to win

The follow on consequences would be unthinkable and intolerable for anyone other than a terrorist… ^

I agree. I just think Sunak, in a press conference, should have acknowledged that the Palestinian people are not Hamas. The language of a peaceful solution between ordinary Israeli and Palestinian should be employed by all commentators.

Whist I agree in principle, Hamas rule Gaza with an iron fist made up of fear.

Hamas were voted into power by the electorate in 2006/7 without any further elections. How much support do they currently have?

Not sure that Mahmoud Abbas has any influence over Hamas.

lixy

growstuff

Egypt has already taken over a quarter of a million refugees on its southern border from Sudan. It's under pressure to take Palestinians, at a time when it's still trying to shake off the Muslim Brotherhood and the aftermath of the Arab Spring. The US and Europe needs to think about how it can support Egypt.

Yes. Israel and Palestine will only be free and stable when their neighbours are too.

I agree lixy. The world's leaders need to look at the bigger picture and I fear that there isn't anybody with the skill to negotiate.

growstuff

Egypt has already taken over a quarter of a million refugees on its southern border from Sudan. It's under pressure to take Palestinians, at a time when it's still trying to shake off the Muslim Brotherhood and the aftermath of the Arab Spring. The US and Europe needs to think about how it can support Egypt.

Yes. Israel and Palestine will only be free and stable when their neighbours are too.

^Hamas has to lose, it is unthinkable for a terrorist organisation to win

The follow on consequences would be unthinkable and intolerable for anyone other than a terrorist… ^

I agree. I just think Sunak, in a press conference, should have acknowledged that the Palestinian people are not Hamas. The language of a peaceful solution between ordinary Israeli and Palestinian should be employed by all commentators.

Katie59

growstuff

Katie59

Are you implying that all Muslims support terrorists?

The majority of Muslims either passively or actively do support terrorist aims, particularly Israel’s right to exist.

How do you know?

Have you done a survey?

You only has to see the celebration by Muslims of the attack on Israel and the number of Muslims demonstrating around the world.
Or perhaps you think they were demonstrating for humanitarian reasons.

The majority of them? I think not. I expect most of them were at home shaking their heads at the horror of it all, just like the rest of us.

Despite abhorrence at Saudi's human rights record, I also think we need to be talking to them too. They're strong and rich and the world would be in real trouble, if they started openly supporting terrorism. Remember what happened when everybody thought getting rid of Saddam Hussein would solve any problems.

growstuff

Katie59

Are you implying that all Muslims support terrorists?

The majority of Muslims either passively or actively do support terrorist aims, particularly Israel’s right to exist.

How do you know?

Have you done a survey?

You only has to see the celebration by Muslims of the attack on Israel and the number of Muslims demonstrating around the world.
Or perhaps you think they were demonstrating for humanitarian reasons.

Glorianny

Let's be clear about what Israel's aims are as far as Palestinians are concerned, they want them gone. They are prepared to behave in ways which contravene human rights in order to achieve their aim. They don't particularly care if they immigrate, are killed or just reduced to such levels of poverty that just existing is difficult, as long as their numbers
are reduced.

The statement about the letter from the Paediatricians is disgusting hate speech

And Hamas’s aims are?

Let's be clear about what Israel's aims are as far as Palestinians are concerned, they want them gone. They are prepared to behave in ways which contravene human rights in order to achieve their aim. They don't particularly care if they immigrate, are killed or just reduced to such levels of poverty that just existing is difficult, as long as their numbers
are reduced.

The statement about the letter from the Paediatricians is disgusting hate speech

Egypt has already taken over a quarter of a million refugees on its southern border from Sudan. It's under pressure to take Palestinians, at a time when it's still trying to shake off the Muslim Brotherhood and the aftermath of the Arab Spring. The US and Europe needs to think about how it can support Egypt.

LizzieDrip

*Israel winning is a far better outcome than Hamas winning
If Hamas win, you best start constructing your own safe rooms*

I was referring to Sunak’s choice of language. As long as those with any power or influence use the language of winners & losers, there will be no hope for peace. I know it’s a long way off but, surely that’s what we want - and so do the ordinary Israeli and Palestinian people. The prospect of peace is a long haul and its possibility should be ‘drip fed’ by all influential commentators - through their careful choice of language. Sunak should know this.

Hamas has to lose, it is unthinkable for a terrorist organisation to win

The follow on consequences would be unthinkable and intolerable for anyone other than a terrorist…

LizzieDrip

*Sunak’s diplomatic skills need a lot of work!
My goodness please someone bring him back before he makes any further gaffs.*

Absolutely! What was he thinking, saying he hoped that Isreal would ‘win’! That is not the language of peace.

I wrote this earlier in this thread.
I really do think that leaders of world countries think in those terms. Like it is a giant game.
POTUS talked about sides or something.

Seen it before.
Been trying to think where.
But it is not the first time that language like that is used by leaders.

Whitewavemark2 If Hamas and other terrorist organisations get it into their heads that they can get away with their barbarism because Israeli stops its ground and air offensive in Gaza, it really will be open season on Jews worldwide.

Heads of State are nervous, I think it’s naive to not look at the situation and it’s far reaching consequences

*Israel winning is a far better outcome than Hamas winning
If Hamas win, you best start constructing your own safe rooms*

I was referring to Sunak’s choice of language. As long as those with any power or influence use the language of winners & losers, there will be no hope for peace. I know it’s a long way off but, surely that’s what we want - and so do the ordinary Israeli and Palestinian people. The prospect of peace is a long haul and its possibility should be ‘drip fed’ by all influential commentators - through their careful choice of language. Sunak should know this.