Nearly 1 million children faced destitution in the UK in 2022..

Doodledog

Who knows, GSM. Without knowing anything about the girl it's impossible to say. I would be disappointed if she were my daughter, but then I am a product of my own culture, and do value that sort of success.

Maybe she felt that fitting in would be impossible (and being a token 'poor kid' would require emotional maturity that may have been beyond her years), or maybe any of a number of things, but on the face of it it does seem a waste. OTOH, the odds are that success would have taken her out of her family and social sphere, and maybe not leaving that was a deliberate decision. Maybe she will regret that later, or maybe not.

A waste to whom? Career success isn't the only way some people measure success.

It would have improved her lot in life as a young Asian girl from a poor background and given her choices. If she wasn’t interested in work at all, which was the case, how was she going to move forward? Nobody was saying she had to be a lawyer - the mentoring was wide-ranging. Quite likely she will marry, have kids and never work, perpetuating the culture and setting that example to any female children she had. I call that a waste.

I didn't say it was . I said that 'on the face of it' it 'seems' a waste, but pointed out the reasons why, for this particular girl, it may not be. As far as we can speculate about a sketchily drawn situation, that is.

GSM, how did her unwillingness to work manifest?

Could she have been scared of failing? Or unsure about what was expected of her? Was she asked to work at home in preparation for the next day? Were her parents supportive of the scheme?

Without knowing a lot more about the situation it is impossible to judge.

Sorry Doodledog, I should have made it clear that I was replying to growstuff.

I don’t know which Asian people you are mixing with GSM but you ideas of Asian women who live in the uk are very outdated!

Germanshepherdsmum

Sorry Doodledog, I should have made it clear that I was replying to growstuff.

It was clear. I was also replying to her, but got out of synch .

She showed total disinterest in any form of work Doodledog. My daughter in law found it very disheartening as this was something she did on top of her paid work and she had hoped to make a difference to someone’s life and aspirations. Naturally I only have sketchy details as she regarded the girl as a client.

It seems to me, Jane, from what I read in newspapers and see on tv (few Asian women round here), that there are still many traditional Asian families where the older women don’t speak English despite having lived here for many years, don’t work outside the home and daughters are expected also to stay at home until they marry despite of course having to attend school. We not infrequently still hear of honour crimes and arranged marriages. Of course this isn’t a representation of all Asian women in the uk, but the fact that choices are denied to any in the 21st century is tragic.

MaizieD

Callistemon21

Glorianny

Rugby is interesting but much more elitist. Clubs have links with academies and universities. 16-18s attend the school and train with the club and some get scholarships to universities where they play and train with both teams.

I don't think it's as elitist as it was.
It had the reputation of being rather 'public school' but not any more.

That was Rugby Union.

Rugby League was a far more working class game...

I have enough trouble following one set of rules without them confusing it with another lot.

Of course it is tragic GSM that any of it goes on

It may come as a surprise to some that in the 70s/80s there were children who didn't have a bed to sleep on, shoes to wear or clothing to fit. Involved in social work and was constantly begging everyone I knew if they had items to donate. Nothing is new but nowadays statistics are much easier to come by (and manipulate) and of course the media feeds on them.

Germanshepherdsmum

She showed total disinterest in any form of work Doodledog. My daughter in law found it very disheartening as this was something she did on top of her paid work and she had hoped to make a difference to someone’s life and aspirations. Naturally I only have sketchy details as she regarded the girl as a client.

It seems to me, Jane, from what I read in newspapers and see on tv (few Asian women round here), that there are still many traditional Asian families where the older women don’t speak English despite having lived here for many years, don’t work outside the home and daughters are expected also to stay at home until they marry despite of course having to attend school. We not infrequently still hear of honour crimes and arranged marriages. Of course this isn’t a representation of all Asian women in the uk, but the fact that choices are denied to any in the 21st century is tragic.

Gosh racism at its worst.
I wonder what you define as Asian? Indian girls score second highest after Chinese girls for A level results. Asian girls come third.
Chinese pupils from state schools have the highest percentage rate going on to university with Asian pupils second. White pupils have the least.
Some Asian women are highly educated and aspirational for their daughters.
Perhaps the Asian girl sensed some antipathy in your DIL and didn't bond with her. Mentoring needs a completely open mind. If your DIL shared your opinions she would be unlikely to have this.

How is what I have said racist? I described the girl as Asian because that is all my daughter in law told me about her. Now you are suggesting that my daughter in law shared my opinions, whatever they might be.

Of course many Asian women are highly educated and very successful. My point was simply that this girl attended a school in a deprived area and sadly showed no interest in any form of work. How dare you twist that and cast aspersions on my daughter in law. I’m sure you are as aware as I am, Glorianny, that there are still Asian families in the uk who expect their daughters to stay at home like their mothers until they marry and not work outside the home. This girl may or may not have been one of them.

Germanshepherdsmum

How is what I have said racist? I described the girl as Asian because that is all my daughter in law told me about her. Now you are suggesting that my daughter in law shared my opinions, whatever they might be.

Of course many Asian women are highly educated and very successful. My point was simply that this girl attended a school in a deprived area and sadly showed no interest in any form of work. How dare you twist that and cast aspersions on my daughter in law. I’m sure you are as aware as I am, Glorianny, that there are still Asian families in the uk who expect their daughters to stay at home like their mothers until they marry and not work outside the home. This girl may or may not have been one of them.

GSM why was the girl's ethnicity of any importance?
Your DIL mentored a girl she couldn't help, the reasons why the girl was difficult are not known. But assuming it had anything to do with her ethnic origins is racist. The evidence which I have posted clearly shows that Asian girls perform well at A levels and in university places. The worst performing at university entrance are white girls. Presumably you don't have any pre-conceived ideas about how their culture is the cause?

I would suggest that ethnicity could be very relevant for the reasons I have given. She was a bright girl who could have thrived - perhaps her school put her forward for mentoring in the hope that her interest could be sparked. I didn’t say that the girl was ‘difficult’, I said she was completely disinterested in work. I don’t know any more than I have said already, nor should I. I didn’t talk much about the pro bono work I did either. And if you call me racist again rest assured I will report the insult.

Germanshepherdsmum

I would suggest that ethnicity could be very relevant for the reasons I have given. She was a bright girl who could have thrived - perhaps her school put her forward for mentoring in the hope that her interest could be sparked. I didn’t say that the girl was ‘difficult’, I said she was completely disinterested in work. I don’t know any more than I have said already, nor should I. I didn’t talk much about the pro bono work I did either. And if you call me racist again rest assured I will report the insult.

But you have no evidence that the girl's background was the one you have assigned to all Asians. You made assumptions based on her ethnicity, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary That's why it's racist
I didn't by the way call you racist I said the post was racist. But report me if you like.
You failed to answer my question about white girls or any cultural reasons for their failures.

Culture and race are separate things, and GSM mentioned cultural norms.

'White girls' come from a variety of cultures too (is it racist of you not to acknowledge that, Glorianny?) As we have discussed, some of those cultural backgrounds will hold them back in various ways, and others will encourage their career success, which is also true of cultures in all racial groups.

You seem to be bringing race into this again, (*Glorianny*) as you did when you accused me of racism on another thread, despite it being you who made the racial connection in that case, when I was talking about sex.

There are Asian cultures which encourage girls to marry young, and if this girl was a British Asian from an area where early marriage/cohabitation was the norm anyway, then maybe she would do exactly that regardless of race. I am unsure about lifting someone out of their cultural milieu like that to be honest - a schoolgirl in particular might struggle to reconcile norms and differences, particularly if she is on her own rather than with her friends, and there is something of the 'rich house/poor house' about it, on the surface at least.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that Asians don't have a strong work ethic, and there are all sorts of possible reasons why the experiment didn't work. All we can do here is speculate, so the example doesn't really give much of an insight into the reasons underpinning inequality.

Is this girl who is described as "Asian" Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, Bangladeshi or something else? All have different cultures.

growstuff

Is this girl who is described as "Asian" Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, Bangladeshi or something else? All have different cultures.

Quite. And after a generation she will likely have absorbed British cultural values too, which will vary depending on her circumstances.

I don’t know growsruff. My daughter in law rightly respected her confidentiality in that regard and was simply disappointed that despite much time and effort and being very bright she was not interested in working. My daughter in law only mentioned it to me because she knew the school was the same one that my grandmother attended in the early 1900s. It would not have been right for her to go into greater detail, nor would it have been right for me to pry. She just shared her disappointment at what seemed to be a waste of a good brain.

growstuff

Is this girl who is described as "Asian" Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, Bangladeshi or something else? All have different cultures.

Asian is a term used in monitoring the background of students. Indian, Pakistani and Bangladesh students are separate groups. If they were all grouped together their achievements would be greater than the Chinese students. www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/a-levels/draft-percentage-of-students-achieving-3-a-grades-or-better-at-a-level/latest#:~:text=225%2C732%20students%20at%20the%20end,from%20the%20Other%20ethnic%20group

It doesn't really matter what the culture was the assessment GSM made was on her ethnicity and apparently her DIL's view that she didn't want to work.
Perhaps she didn't think much of the law. Perhaps she wanted to act, or paint or do something completely different. But no she's Asian so the only possible reason was that she intended to marry and have children. But then again what if she did? Her choice. Because she's from a deprived background apparently it's a choice she had no right to make. Only rich girls get to choose. (oh and it helps if they are white)

You are extrapolating a lot from very little there, Glorianny. GSM questioned whether there were cultural issues at play, which may or may not be connected to race.

You have form for accusing posters of racism without evidence, and it's a serious accusation.

Doodledog

You are extrapolating a lot from very little there, Glorianny. GSM questioned whether there were cultural issues at play, which may or may not be connected to race.

You have form for accusing posters of racism without evidence, and it's a serious accusation.

I'm not "extrapolating " anything .
Its there in the original post
She showed total disinterest in any form of work Doodledog.

It seems to me, Jane, from what I read in newspapers and see on tv (few Asian women round here), that there are still many traditional Asian families where the older women don’t speak English despite having lived here for many years, don’t work outside the home and daughters are expected also to stay at home until they marry despite of course having to attend school. We not infrequently still hear of honour crimes and arranged marriages. Of course this isn’t a representation of all Asian women in the uk, but the fact that choices are denied to any in the 21st century is tragic

The only possible reason that she could be disinterested in work was because she was Asian.
How is that not racist?
Definition
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

I understand what racism is, thanks. But GSM's comment was in direct response to a question from growstuff which asked why the girl's lack of engagement was necessarily a waste, and to a comment from Janejudge that her comments about Asian girls are outdated.

She did not say that the only possible reason for the girl's disinterest was her heritage - that is a gross misinterpretation of what was said, deliberately phrased to make GSM look bad. What was said was that the girl (for whatever reason) was not interested in work, and that the failure of the mentoring was a waste because it would have taken the girl away from the culture that might hold her back because of family expectations. GSM had already pointed out that the girl was from a socially disadvantaged background - there is no suggestion that her race came into that at all.

As has already been discussed, some of the people you refer to as 'white girls' are similarly held back by cultural norms, which (as has also already been discussed) differ across different groups - is it racist to say that, too? Asking for a generalised comment about 'white girls' (which you did) is arguably as racist as making a comment about an Asian girl. Not all 'white girls' are the same, any more than all Asian girls are, but both you and GSM have made comments that any reader of the thread who is not simply looking for a way to score points will take as they were intended - to refer to the particular social group under discussion - in this case the disadvantaged.

If someone were to go out of her way to look for something unpleasant to say about another poster, they could just as easily comment on your own post as on GSM's. Luckily, most people will use emotional intelligence and a knowledge of the posters' history to consider what was actually meant in both cases.

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1392278404708185