Nearly 1 million children faced destitution in the UK in 2022..

The concept of the deserving and undeserving poor makes me squirm. Who are we, relatively well-off, to say why people fall into poverty?

Is it because they are thick maybe? - are they able to change this? - No.

Is it because they were brought up in a chaotic family situation? - are they able to change this? - No.

Is it because they have mental health problems and our health service fails them? - re they able to change this? - No.

Is it because our education system failed them? - are they able to change this? - No.

Is it because they are addicted to drugs or alcohol? - are they able to change this? - No.

A decent society recognises that there will be those with problems that are no fault of their own who will need help from the communal pot. And even if their problems are their own fault - has none of us ever made a mistake?

The sort of problems that land people in poverty are always there and it is the job of governments to try and prevent and alleviate these. Is this what our government has done? .......

- they ended Sure Start which was a scheme that was just coming into its own, helping families with problems learn parenting skills and find social support.
- they have underfunded the education system so that children with special needs do not get the help they need and teachers are dealing with non-learning problems every day to the detriment of all pupils.
- they have presided over the complete collapse of CAMHS nationwide, so that children with problems are left to the mercy of drugs gangs.

Don't give me deserving and undeserving poor - it makes me sick.

And as for "trickle down" - the idea that heaping riches on the already well off so that they will stimulate the economy by their investment in the country - that has been shown to be nonsense. They invest in themselves. And any positive spin-offs their might be to the economy get there too slowly for those visiting food banks.

I spent a large part of my working career as a social worker and know of what I speak. Those who sit behind the bullet-proof screen of their safe and comfortable life really have absolutely no idea how some people are forced to live, and how we as a society have failed them.

CG13 it’s naive to think that a tanking economy will help the poorest in our society. It is the task of government to ensure a baseline so that the poorest are helped - it’s not the job of multinational corporations to assign benefits. They just pay the taxes.

Absolutely right GG.

I think it’s quite naive to think that the added bonuses investment bankers could now receive would be diverted to the poorest in our society, that isn’t how multi-national corporations work.

It is the responsibility of Parents to provide for and safeguard their children, and when there is a problem and this falls by the wayside, whether through illness, unemployment, divorce etc it then should be the responsibility of the Government of the day to step up and provide a safety net for those in need.

We probably all have come across a feckless family but that doesn’t mean that the children should suffer, nor does it mean all families that experience difficulties are feckless

Bank employees in high street banks do not have the same skills as merchant bankers, investment bankers - Goldman Sachs etc. Rishi Sunak has direct knowledge of investment banking. I go with his approach to growth in banking and only time will tell if it is helping more people than the Labour approach of stuff the rich. Robin Hood and all that.

It’s investment bankers who get the big bonuses Glorianny, not those working in retail banking.

Germanshepherdsmum

There is no assumption whatsoever on my part that everyone in difficult circumstances is at fault, nor have I even implied that that is the case. The thread turned to people who have many children and I gave an example of one such couple. Suddenly that becomes ‘it is all their fault’. In the case of that couple, yes it was.

I know all about men who refuse to pay for their children after deserting them, and the ruses they employ. I was married to one.

It doesn't matter who is at fault as far as the parents are concerned. It is never the child's fault, so why should the child suffer? I can see in your views the influence of Victorian and Christian thinking, such as the deserving and undeserving poor and the concept of original sin. We had I thought moved past such things.

As for the concept that bankers don't take money from the poor, the billions the government gave to rescue the banks could have been spent elsewhere
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_Kingdom_bank_rescue_package#:~:text=At%20its%20peak%2C%20the%20cash,been%20recouped%20over%20the%20years.
And the banker's bonuses come as hundreds of bank branches are closed and the staff made redundant. Arguably they are creating the poor.

There is no assumption whatsoever on my part that everyone in difficult circumstances is at fault, nor have I even implied that that is the case. The thread turned to people who have many children and I gave an example of one such couple. Suddenly that becomes ‘it is all their fault’. In the case of that couple, yes it was.

I know all about men who refuse to pay for their children after deserting them, and the ruses they employ. I was married to one.

Germanshepherdsmum

^as though they comprise the whole body of the deprived … the assumption that everyone in difficult circumstances is the same^ - nobody on this thread has said that Maizie. The accusation is yours alone.

I don't think you've quite taken in the disgust I feel when posters' response to the fact that people in this supposedly wealthy country are destitute is to trot out a story implying that it is all their fault.

Why is it even necessary to do that? Shutting their eyes to the devastation of our nation by their chosen political party? Genetic inability to empathise? Virtue signalling?

It certainly reminds me why I never have, and never ever will vote tory...

Callistemon21

Germanshepherdsmum

A slight exaggeration Maizie?

Well, I have a few tales over the years of fathers who seem to have had the ability to hide their income and resent paying for the upkeep of the children they fathered.

There is very little you can do if a parent (usually a father) is determined not to pay, he will change jobs frequently, work for cash or move overseas.

MaizieD

Germanshepherdsmum

A slight exaggeration Maizie?

Not at all, GSM. The minute anyone talks about poverty, malnutrition, low educational attainment; about anything associated with deprivation and inequality up pop the right wingers to tell us how it's all self inflicted and give us examples of the feckless, spendthrift, ne'er do well neglectful parents or individuals they know or have known as though they comprise the whole body of the deprived and they only have to pull themselves together to be thoroughly better people.

There always have been, and there always will be, hopeless individuals who can't cope in one way or another but the assumption that everyone in difficult circumstances is the same is just wrong. And unpleasant.

The majority of single parents (mainly mothers) are in their 30s and have been married or in a stable relationship. Presumably they didn't envisage a relationship break up when their children were conceived.

Callistemon21

Germanshepherdsmum

A slight exaggeration Maizie?

Well, I have a few tales over the years of fathers who seem to have had the ability to hide their income and resent paying for the upkeep of the children they fathered.

I have a tale you could add to your collection.

A proper school dinner for every child of all ages, not means tested, would be a start.

Germanshepherdsmum

A slight exaggeration Maizie?

Well, I have a few tales over the years of fathers who seem to have had the ability to hide their income and resent paying for the upkeep of the children they fathered.

GrannyGravy13

It is never the child’s fault.

You are right. It is never the child's fault.

It seems to be, from what I see on TV and media, that it is often not the mother's fault either because whenever a struggling family is shown, more often than not, the mother is a struggling single Mum.
I find myself asking "Where's the father?"

And yes, we know from experience of some family members and that of friends (and at the risk of sounding misandrist) in many cases the father has left and is finding ways to get out of supporting his children financially.

How someone can do that, I do not know.

as though they comprise the whole body of the deprived … the assumption that everyone in difficult circumstances is the same - nobody on this thread has said that Maizie. The accusation is yours alone.

Germanshepherdsmum

As a partner in a law firm I was self-employed. I paid tax at the same rates as everyone else.

Well why wouldn't you? What is your opinion of people like Rees Mogg who is paid dividends and loans via Southern Ireland? Or the Tesco CEO whose salary is paid wholly in S Ireland? Immoral? Fair? Deserving?

JenniferEccles

Parents have the primary responsibility for their children’s well-being., don’t they? If everyone only had the children their finances allowed, all would be well.The problem arises when they continue to produce more children, but then of course the welfare state is obliged to step in, as it does if people fall on hard times through no fault of their own.

GSM is correct. The bankers bonuses won’t take money from the ‘poor’.

That didn't take long. I have just been reminded why I had to take a break from GN.

Well this Gran is definitely not in her 40s …… and I don’t see any point pretending otherwise MaizieD.
Do you have any idea of how energetic/demanding a 3 year old can be to someone in their mid 70s? Okay pretty special too …..

I had a disabled child and my husband worked, it was still bloody difficult

Grans are old people who are tired, often ill and becoming increasingly frail.

Jeez... that's a bit ageist, ronib.

I've known people who were Grans in their 40s. Old, ill and frail? I think not...

Germanshepherdsmum

A slight exaggeration Maizie?

Not at all, GSM. The minute anyone talks about poverty, malnutrition, low educational attainment; about anything associated with deprivation and inequality up pop the right wingers to tell us how it's all self inflicted and give us examples of the feckless, spendthrift, ne'er do well neglectful parents or individuals they know or have known as though they comprise the whole body of the deprived and they only have to pull themselves together to be thoroughly better people.

There always have been, and there always will be, hopeless individuals who can't cope in one way or another but the assumption that everyone in difficult circumstances is the same is just wrong. And unpleasant.

Kandinsky yes the truth hurts

Grans are old people who are tired, often ill and becoming increasingly frail

Crikey - that cheered me up.

Even if the parents are the most feckless and irresponsible people on the planet, how on earth does that justify a child suffering? We used to have a thing called social responsibility, which meant that children received from the state the support theit parents could not, or would not, provide.
It was a system that provided high quality reasonable priced accommodation, gave mothers and babies nutritional support, provided regular health checks for school children and a free school dentistt.It fed children, clothed them and checked on them. Parents are not the only people with responsibility for a child, society should care for them. It takes a village to raise a child.