Nearly 1 million children faced destitution in the UK in 2022..

Luckygirl3

One girl in one situation from which no conclusions can be drawn. Maybe law was not for her.
The crux of the matter is that she was from "a deprived part of London." Why is it deprived I wonder? Who has the power and the remit to change that? Only our elected representatives. Have they done that? .... no. Are they even trying?

I don't want to take the discussion off track again, though I do consider some things relevant.
I worked in a deprived part of London, East London to be precise. Having lived there prior to 2012 until recently, we witnessed a complete turnaround in the area, over 100,000 new jobs were created, new neighbourhoods were built, the infrastructure grew, affordable housing and great transport links were established, and culture and sport flourished. It was a great example of how to provide upward growth in a previously very deprived area.
However, and I know this because I was involved in education, there were still disaffected, dysfunctional families who despite everything on offer did not avail themselves of the opportunities to improve their lives and those of their children.

And I have commented on those suggestions. What no government can change is human nature. There have always been people who don’t want to make an effort to improve their lot, who are content to resort to crime rather than working, who are dependent on some substance or other and will always just carry on like that no matter what choices are available to them.

I have listed these several times upthread.

Luckygirl3

"Society has always had its dregs" - "nanny state."

This is Victorian stuff, although even they had their philanthropists.

I find the lack of compassion very sad indeed.

I do understand why those who have not worked with the "dregs" fail to grasp what being brought up in these sort of circumstances really means. But I do not understand how they cannot see that tackling these problems benefits us ALL - rich and poor.

Tackling them how? What do you do propose?

Germanshepherdsmum

You are basing your comments on educational achievement on the stage of university entrance Glorianny. Consider the many children who don’t reach that level and maybe leave school with no qualifications at all. It is well known that Chinese students (very small families, parents very keen on academic achievement) do exceptionally well, as do some from other ethnic backgrounds for largely the same reasons. My son’s course at university was dominated by Chinese students. Hard working people. There are those from all ethnic backgrounds, but rarely I imagine Chinese, who simply don’t engage at school and waste their educational opportunities. That I think is very sad. I suspect it’s often because parents are ill-educated and give no encouragement, maybe fearing their children getting above themselves but that is by no means always the case. You can take the horse to water but you can’t make it drink - especially when the horse’s mates are skipping school and making money shoplifting and dealing drugs. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. And when those children have children of their own the cycle continues. As it always has.

Ethnicity and deprivation is measured in this country
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/compendium/economicreview/february2020/childpovertyandeducationoutcomesbyethnicity

Germanshepherdsmum

Nanny state in other words - we have always had drunken, unintelligent people and we always will. Better housing won’t do anything to solve the problem. Education is already a legal requirement for all children but you can’t make them engage. Antenatal classes are freely available to all pregnant women and they encompass parenting skills, but again you can’t enforce engagement.
Why do you think there is no real determination to clamp down on drug dealing - what more do you think can be done?
Society has always had its dregs, and it always will.

Oof!

This is horrible language. I think that it's true that some people who represent 'authority' (teachers, social workers etc) can fail to 'make people engage', but at least some of that failure comes from a belief that there is only one 'right' way to think and behave (theirs) and imposing it on those who have different views is akin to colonisation. Read 'Poverty Safari' to hear from a horse's mouth about this sort of thing.

You are basing your comments on educational achievement on the stage of university entrance Glorianny. Consider the many children who don’t reach that level and maybe leave school with no qualifications at all. It is well known that Chinese students (very small families, parents very keen on academic achievement) do exceptionally well, as do some from other ethnic backgrounds for largely the same reasons. My son’s course at university was dominated by Chinese students. Hard working people. There are those from all ethnic backgrounds, but rarely I imagine Chinese, who simply don’t engage at school and waste their educational opportunities. That I think is very sad. I suspect it’s often because parents are ill-educated and give no encouragement, maybe fearing their children getting above themselves but that is by no means always the case. You can take the horse to water but you can’t make it drink - especially when the horse’s mates are skipping school and making money shoplifting and dealing drugs. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. And when those children have children of their own the cycle continues. As it always has.

"Society has always had its dregs" - "nanny state."

This is Victorian stuff, although even they had their philanthropists.

I find the lack of compassion very sad indeed.

I do understand why those who have not worked with the "dregs" fail to grasp what being brought up in these sort of circumstances really means. But I do not understand how they cannot see that tackling these problems benefits us ALL - rich and poor.

And where have I said it’s their choice Maizie? I have said that it may be a result of their chosen lifestyle, which is entirely different.

I have no suggestions for initiatives to prevent it other than the individual taking responsibility for their life, starting with paying attention at school and using contraception to avoid the birth of multiple children with an inadequate income causing poverty.

I don’t have such a belief Maizie, that is pure fabrication.

How else does one interpret your frequently expressed assertion that people end up destitute by choice, GSM?

If you don't think they deserve it, what suggestions do you have for initiatives which might help to prevent it?

Doodledog

I understand what racism is, thanks. But GSM's comment was in direct response to a question from growstuff which asked why the girl's lack of engagement was necessarily a waste, and to a comment from Janejudge that her comments about Asian girls are outdated.

She did not say that the only possible reason for the girl's disinterest was her heritage - that is a gross misinterpretation of what was said, deliberately phrased to make GSM look bad. What was said was that the girl (for whatever reason) was not interested in work, and that the failure of the mentoring was a waste because it would have taken the girl away from the culture that might hold her back because of family expectations. GSM had already pointed out that the girl was from a socially disadvantaged background - there is no suggestion that her race came into that at all.

As has already been discussed, some of the people you refer to as 'white girls' are similarly held back by cultural norms, which (as has also already been discussed) differ across different groups - is it racist to say that, too? Asking for a generalised comment about 'white girls' (which you did) is arguably as racist as making a comment about an Asian girl. Not all 'white girls' are the same, any more than all Asian girls are, but both you and GSM have made comments that any reader of the thread who is not simply looking for a way to score points will take as they were intended - to refer to the particular social group under discussion - in this case the disadvantaged.

If someone were to go out of her way to look for something unpleasant to say about another poster, they could just as easily comment on your own post as on GSM's. Luckily, most people will use emotional intelligence and a knowledge of the posters' history to consider what was actually meant in both cases.

What I actually posted was
The worst performing at university entrance are white girls. Presumably you don't have any pre-conceived ideas about how their culture is the cause?
Asking a question is not racist. The figures are available on the link I gave. It's a simple question to discover why someone has the views they have. Of course GSM never answered because the only answer is "No" because most people accept that white culture is diverse and different. Unfortunately some people are unable to say the same about Asian culture.

If anyone wished to comment on my posts they are free to do so. Most people use emotional intelligence to recognise when one poster constantly opposes another, even when they are obviously right.

The disadvantaged come from many backgrounds. But the evidence is that ethnicity is certainly not a factor in educational achievement in the way GSM has proposed. It is a factor and a problem for black West Indian boys and white girls who are underachieving. Asian girls are not.

Nanny state in other words - we have always had drunken, unintelligent people and we always will. Better housing won’t do anything to solve the problem. Education is already a legal requirement for all children but you can’t make them engage. Antenatal classes are freely available to all pregnant women and they encompass parenting skills, but again you can’t enforce engagement.
Why do you think there is no real determination to clamp down on drug dealing - what more do you think can be done?
Society has always had its dregs, and it always will.

What do you expect the government to do about that? Contraception is available.

Contraception is indeed available - but in order to use it effectively you have to be: able to think ahead, reasonably intelligent, sober and not on drugs, have access to that contraception, have a sense of self-worth. Many young people brought up in deprived areas have none of this. Their upbringings may have been chaotic, their parents themselves come from chaotic backgrounds. What seems so simple to us is not simple in the context in which many children grow up. As I have said before - it is a cycle of deprivation which can indeed respond to government intervention...... better housing, more relevant education, parenting skills taught both in and out of school (and that includes children's emotional and stability needs, not just which end the nappy goes on), better drug rehabilitation and a real determination to clamp down on drug dealing. All these require investment - both of money and of time. There is no quick fix, but governments are reluctant to invest in long term projects - they need quick results and sound bites that get them votes.

Yess, good point, Luckygirl. The girl has been an unfortunate distraction from the point. Even if we knew more details she would still represent herself, no more than that.

My point about self-sabotage stands though. I saw it a lot in the college. The ‘us and them’ thing can be deeply ingrained and tricky to work around. I developed strategies to deal with it once I recognised it for what it was. The students were young (16+), so it was possible, but many will miss even that opportunity now, with the withdrawal of EMA. At least they had to attend, or their parents lost out financially. And at least colleges got funding then - ours got a lot of EU money as it was in an area of social deprivation.

How many times do I have to say that it wasn’t about being a lawyer. Do people not understand the word ‘mentoring’?

An area which now has a large immigrant population Lucky, with large families. What do you expect the government to do about that? Contraception is available.

One girl in one situation from which no conclusions can be drawn. Maybe law was not for her.
The crux of the matter is that she was from "a deprived part of London." Why is it deprived I wonder? Who has the power and the remit to change that? Only our elected representatives. Have they done that? .... no. Are they even trying?

It wasn’t work experience Spore. My daughter in law went to the school to mentor the girl. It wasn’t about trying to get her to take up law.

I don’t have such a belief Maizie, that is pure fabrication.

When my children were choosing career options, the feeling at the time was to follow a fulfilling path if possible.
Yes, and one you really enjoy!

Thank god in the not too distant future the non academic are going to have their place in the sun. Why, AI.

One neighbour here is a retired solicitor who is quite vocal in his dislike of his chosen profession- for some reason I am unsure why.
When my children were choosing career options, the feeling at the time was to follow a fulfilling path if possible. So one person’s career dream clearly isn’t going to work across the board.
I don’t know if this means under achievement or not but probably less stress overall?

There are many kids from privileged backgrounds whose potential is way above their attainment. They waste opportunities too.

How come, please MaizieD?? By disposition, I was referring to one's temperament. Following on from Doodledog's analysis, I meant how your inner mettle affects your behaviour.

Joseann

Good point Doodledog, which brings this back to the disposition of the individual and their commitment to wanting to improve their chances in life. Some seize the opportunity, but some, due to their make-up, are destined to fail. That is what is relevant.

Sorry, but this is sounding dangerously close to GSM'S unpleasant belief that those living in destitution deserve all they get.

Good point Doodledog, which brings this back to the disposition of the individual and their commitment to wanting to improve their chances in life. Some seize the opportunity, but some, due to their make-up, are destined to fail. That is what is relevant.

I think for some teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds (maybe adults too) there is pressure to feign disinterest as a shield against failure. Probably part of a feeling that some things are for ‘them’, not ‘us’, and that if you try but fail to be one of ‘them’ you are letting the side down on top of the humiliation of proving them right.

The girl will have known that she was being mentored because of her background (of disadvantage not race) which may have played into that.

Believing that if you don’t do well it’s because you never wanted to is self-sabotage but also self-protection.

This is more supposition about this particular girl of course, but as a general observation I think it holds true.