Israel and Palestine (thread 3)

Thank you for answering Glorianny If I understand you correctly you don't think any physical action should have been taken. The Israelis should just accept the barbaric, inhuman treatment of their innocent citizens, remember not one soldier or official was targeted, only kibbutz residents and a peaceful music festival. Hamas should remain unpunished for their offences and negotiations begin?
I would have preferred the reply to be a ground incursion to root out Hamas which would have resulted in far fewer civilian deaths, but sadly not none at all. It's easier, of course, to take this view when I'm miles away and have not suffered the butchery.
I still can't comprehend how you can say an organisation that encouraged its members to behead, butcher, rape, burn alive its innocent victims is not inhuman. Parading a near naked woman to be spat upon, and defiled before beheading her is not the behaviour of humane people.

Katie59

The spokeswoman for British Jews on QT last night spoke about International intervention to create a two state solution. I think the first step towards that would be Israel complying with resolution 242 and withdrawing from occupied territories. The PLO recognised the resolution some time ago. It would be the beginning of a two state solution.

Israel did withdraw from Gaza and Hamas took over, today we have the result of that, Gaza is not sustainable as a separate independant region in any case so that is not an option.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and then turned it into the world's largest concentration camp. They controlled all supplies entering the area. They also controlled fuel and water. What this meant was that any economic development in the area was limited. Factories could only produce when there was power (and there were frequent disruptions). Agriculture could only produce when there was water and it was limited. Nonetheless Palestinians in Gaza were beginning to become more economically productive. Until now of course, when the Israelis are bombing them" into the middle ages" as they have said previously they would, and have.

Peace necessitates that the Palestinians have a stake in their own country where they are able to create a viable economy and can have their basic human rights. When they have those things it will be more difficult for any terrorist organisation to recruit. Oppression and killing doesn't defeat terrorism it's the best recruiter for it.

Maybe I’m wrong, but looking at the map of Israel, the Palestinians already legally and autonomously occupy quite a large part of Israel. The Gaza Strip is the smaller, but the West Bank looks quite large. I’ve never been to Israel so haven’t seen any of it personally. I thought, maybe I’m wrong, that was the two state solution. Egypt didn’t want the Gaza Strip, which was originally either Egyptian or managed by Egypt, and Jordan didn’t want the West Bank, which was originally Jordanian. Neither state wanted the Palestinians apparently. The current situation has come about, following the 7/10 attack, and because Hamas have been firing rockets into Israel for years, launching suicide bombers in cafes and on buses, which is why checkpoints were introduced, and generally agitating against Israel. When the Gaza Strip was given over for the Palestinians there were apparently only about 750,000 people living there, now there are over 2 million and so of course it is more crowded. This is the current situation geographically as I understand it, but someone will probably be along to tell me I’m wrong.
So given this situation, why are Hamas so determined to wipe out the Israelis and claim the land for themselves? Are they unable to accept shared and peaceful living? If eventually a new two state solution is found, will Hamas accept this?

Iam64, I also saw it reported last night about the roasting of a live baby on 7/10. The depravity is beyond comprehension.

Glorianny, you say peace necessitates that Palestinians have a stake in their own country, well you are right of course. But peace also necessitates that Palestinians/Hamas don’t ever fire rockets into Israel, ever that is, and stop sending out kids as suicide bombers to go off in cafes and on buses, or at bus stops. The latter was only stopped by the Israelis putting up checkpoints and even then children were told to go and throw stones and bricks at the soldiers. Peace requires all that to stop. Forever.

maddyone

Glorianny, you say peace necessitates that Palestinians have a stake in their own country, well you are right of course. But peace also necessitates that Palestinians/Hamas don’t ever fire rockets into Israel, ever that is, and stop sending out kids as suicide bombers to go off in cafes and on buses, or at bus stops. The latter was only stopped by the Israelis putting up checkpoints and even then children were told to go and throw stones and bricks at the soldiers. Peace requires all that to stop. Forever.

And how will bombing Gaza do that? Over 70% of those killed are women and children. That will leave men with no families, with little reason to go on living. They will be ripe for recruitment to Hamas.
Peace requires that an occupying country stop murdering and killing innocent civilians, something Israel has been doing for 20 years. Is it really a proportionate response to shoot children who throw stones? Israelis have been doing it for years and not in Gaza. They are still doing it

2019 www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-teen-rock-thrower-shot-dead-by-israeli-army-in-west-bank/

Peace required that Hamas didn’t go out and murder, in the most bestial way, over a thousand civilians. Hamas did that and what is happening now in Gaza is the result.
Are you surprised? I’m not! Hamas caused this war!

Israel withdrew from Gaza and then turned it into the world's largest concentration camp. They controlled all supplies entering the area. They also controlled fuel and water. What this meant was that any economic development in the area was limited. Factories could only produce when there was power (and there were frequent disruptions). Agriculture could only produce when there was water and it was limited. Nonetheless Palestinians in Gaza were beginning to become more economically productive. Until now of course, when the Israelis are bombing them" into the middle ages" as they have said previously they would, and have.

Glorianna Is Israel also responsible for the squandering of billions of dollars given to the Palestinian government, intended to support economic development but subverted into the building of the tunnels and arms-gathering? Intended to build desalination plants but used to build armed bases beneath hospitals?
I find your use of the 'concentration camp' analogy quite inappropriate.

lixy

^Israel withdrew from Gaza and then turned it into the world's largest concentration camp. They controlled all supplies entering the area. They also controlled fuel and water. What this meant was that any economic development in the area was limited. Factories could only produce when there was power (and there were frequent disruptions). Agriculture could only produce when there was water and it was limited. Nonetheless Palestinians in Gaza were beginning to become more economically productive. Until now of course, when the Israelis are bombing them" into the middle ages" as they have said previously they would, and have.^

Glorianna Is Israel also responsible for the squandering of billions of dollars given to the Palestinian government, intended to support economic development but subverted into the building of the tunnels and arms-gathering? Intended to build desalination plants but used to build armed bases beneath hospitals?
I find your use of the 'concentration camp' analogy quite inappropriate.

There is no point in having a desalination plant if you don't have the power to run it.
The tunnels were originally built to import goods for the reconstruction of Gaza after the Israelis last bombing. The Israelis restricted importation to such an extent that it was estimated that the reconstruction of Gaza would take 80 years. It was done much more quickly through smuggling. The tunnels may now be military but it was within Israel's capacity to negotiate a two state solution and prevent them ever being built. It failed to do so.

“The tunnels were originally built to import goods for the reconstruction of Gaza after the Israelis last bombing. The Israelis restricted importation to such an extent that it was estimated that the reconstruction of Gaza would take 80 years. It was done much more quickly through smuggling. The tunnels may now be military but it was within Israel's capacity to negotiate a two state solution and prevent them ever being built. It failed to do so.“

There is no reasoning with anyone who believes that, clearly the tunnels have been used to import arms and explosives on a massive scale.
Gaza as an independant region is not sustainable without outside support, either Egypt administers it or it stays with Israel.

There has understandably been much talk of how normal Israeli and Palestinian citizens just want to live peaceful lives, but what isn’t known is just how many Palestinians still support the barbaric Hamas regime.
They voted them in after all so even now, despite the unspeakable cruelty of the terrorists, it would surely be very naive to believe that they don’t have supporters and sympathisers amongst the population.

This must be the problem for Israel.

Why on earth would Egypt want to administer Gaza? Of course Gaza is unsustainable, it's airport was bombed, shipping is only allowed into Gaza under Israeli control and Gazans have a 12 nautical mile limit. There is no access to or from Gaza except via Israeli controlled points or via Rafah into Egypt. Basically all legitimate movement of goods and people are under the control of Israel or Egypt. How are the Palestinians who survive this incursion going to live? How are they going to rebuild all the services that have been destroyed? How will Israel provide a safe peaceful country for it's citizens with Gaza on the doorstep full of people with no hope and no future? These are the real questions of importance.

JenniferEccles

There has understandably been much talk of how normal Israeli and Palestinian citizens just want to live peaceful lives, but what isn’t known is just how many Palestinians still support the barbaric Hamas regime.
They voted them in after all so even now, despite the unspeakable cruelty of the terrorists, it would surely be very naive to believe that they don’t have supporters and sympathisers amongst the population.

This must be the problem for Israel.

Of course, and this is the problem.

There are unconfirmed reports that Hamas as well as blocking the roads south to Khan Younis have had snipers open fire in women and children attempting to leave Gaza City…

Egypt administered Gaza between 1948 to 1967, Jordan did the same for the West Bank during this time. After the six day war in 1967 between Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Israel, Israel as the victor took over these two enclaves. This is why there has been a suggestion that Egypt takes back Gaza for a while, using the time to hammer out a two state system with Israel. Pie in the sky I'm afraid! Can't imagine for one moment that Egypt would agree to this, why on earth should they?

foxie48

Why on earth would Egypt want to administer Gaza? Of course Gaza is unsustainable, it's airport was bombed, shipping is only allowed into Gaza under Israeli control and Gazans have a 12 nautical mile limit. There is no access to or from Gaza except via Israeli controlled points or via Rafah into Egypt. Basically all legitimate movement of goods and people are under the control of Israel or Egypt. How are the Palestinians who survive this incursion going to live? How are they going to rebuild all the services that have been destroyed? How will Israel provide a safe peaceful country for it's citizens with Gaza on the doorstep full of people with no hope and no future? These are the real questions of importance.

Egypt doesnt want to touch it with a bargepole which is why Palestinians must realize that living peacefully under Israeli rule is the only option. There is no plan B for Gaza

Katie59

foxie48

Why on earth would Egypt want to administer Gaza? Of course Gaza is unsustainable, it's airport was bombed, shipping is only allowed into Gaza under Israeli control and Gazans have a 12 nautical mile limit. There is no access to or from Gaza except via Israeli controlled points or via Rafah into Egypt. Basically all legitimate movement of goods and people are under the control of Israel or Egypt. How are the Palestinians who survive this incursion going to live? How are they going to rebuild all the services that have been destroyed? How will Israel provide a safe peaceful country for it's citizens with Gaza on the doorstep full of people with no hope and no future? These are the real questions of importance.

Egypt doesnt want to touch it with a bargepole which is why Palestinians must realize that living peacefully under Israeli rule is the only option. There is no plan B for Gaza

Well there is, a proper Palestinian state with proper access to all goods, utilities and services. Where Palestinian people can live freely and vote as they wish.

Katie59

foxie48

Why on earth would Egypt want to administer Gaza? Of course Gaza is unsustainable, it's airport was bombed, shipping is only allowed into Gaza under Israeli control and Gazans have a 12 nautical mile limit. There is no access to or from Gaza except via Israeli controlled points or via Rafah into Egypt. Basically all legitimate movement of goods and people are under the control of Israel or Egypt. How are the Palestinians who survive this incursion going to live? How are they going to rebuild all the services that have been destroyed? How will Israel provide a safe peaceful country for it's citizens with Gaza on the doorstep full of people with no hope and no future? These are the real questions of importance.

Egypt doesnt want to touch it with a bargepole which is why Palestinians must realize that living peacefully under Israeli rule is the only option. There is no plan B for Gaza

So, that will solve absolutely nothing, it will be back to square one with Gaza flattened, 10,000 or more Palestinians dead and a fresh lot of recruits for Hamas.

Interesting that a few ( possibly only one) posters are inclined to believe all the hamas health ministry numbers, also the much talked about ‘nearly all women and children’ when common sense tells you that can’t be true.Missile strikes leading to building collapse would affect men equally.

What Israel are striving to achieve is to reduce hamas numbers to the lowest possible so that they are no longer able to be mounting any attacks.It doesn’t mean the absolute end of them, but like Isis it means they will be a bit of a spent force.There will always be extremists and crazy fanatics of course.After that Israel will I expect strengthen it’s borders and not have anything to do with Gaza.

Oreo

Interesting that a few ( possibly only one) posters are inclined to believe all the hamas health ministry numbers, also the much talked about ‘nearly all women and children’ when common sense tells you that can’t be true.Missile strikes leading to building collapse would affect men equally.

There are more women and children in Gaza than men, so the opposite of your claim is likely to be true.

Funny that in all the tv footage there are wall to wall men.
In any case, hamas are no doubt lying through their teeth about everything.

Oreo

Funny that in all the tv footage there are wall to wall men.
In any case, hamas are no doubt lying through their teeth about everything.

Oh really?

About half of the people in Gaza are under 18. Of the remaining 50%, about half are women. That means that approximately 75% of the population is either a child or a woman, so it's hardly surprising that the majority of those killed is either a woman or a child.

Katie59

“The tunnels were originally built to import goods for the reconstruction of Gaza after the Israelis last bombing. The Israelis restricted importation to such an extent that it was estimated that the reconstruction of Gaza would take 80 years. It was done much more quickly through smuggling. The tunnels may now be military but it was within Israel's capacity to negotiate a two state solution and prevent them ever being built. It failed to do so.“

There is no reasoning with anyone who believes that, clearly the tunnels have been used to import arms and explosives on a massive scale.
Gaza as an independant region is not sustainable without outside support, either Egypt administers it or it stays with Israel.

Of course they have, but that was not their original purpose.
Had a two state solution been implemented and the Palestinian people been permitted to develop a thriving economy there would have been little or no reason for any Palestinians to join Hamas.

Oreo I sincerely hope that the number of deaths have been exaggerated but according to Jeremy Bowen's comments on the BBC website, in the past international organisations have found them to be accurate. If these numbers are true, the number killed in Gaza in a month will soon exceed the number of Ukrainians killed since the start of the war started by Russia. As I believe we all have lives of equal value regardless of our religion or Nationality, I find this truly dreadful. However, it seems that some people feel differently, believing the lives of innocent Palestinians are of less value. Yes, I do accept that a proportion will belong to Hamas but according to the same report, this is unlikely to exceed 10% of the total.

As Israel once again bombs Gaza into the middle ages I am reminded of Einstein's definition of madness
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results