Covid Inquiry

Iam64

Kadinsky -was the nurse being inhuman?
There’s some truth in her comment. Just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should.

Do Not Recussitate has its place in a caring medical/family discussion

I agree Iam64.
My mother died at 94. Until one year before her death she was happy, and independent with our help and support. A cleaner came to clean her flat and she had carers to help her shower each morning, but she came out in the car with us, I took her shopping or got her shopping for her, and so on. After her fall when she broke her shoulder, from which she never recovered properly, she had to live in a care home. She deteriorated slowly and surely, and for six months at least, said she wanted to die. Every infection, every medical problem was treated and she was looked after so well, but her bowels stopped working properly, so hospital admission, repeated UTIs meant constant antibiotics, many days of being unwell and I could go on. After the last paramedic call out because her SATs were all over the place, but then settled, I said to the staff, please don’t send her into hospital. I knew they would poke her and prod her and fill her up with drugs, but the truth was my mother was slowly dying. Her body was giving up, her organs failing to work properly and she was just so tired. She died a week later, peacefully in her care home. But she would rather have not lived that last year of her life, being kept alive by constant interventions. Poor mum.

So yes, sometimes very old people are kept going for longer than they should be, and it happened even more so with both my parent in laws, but I won’t go into all that too.

Sorry, I’ve hijacked the thread a bit. So back to the delightful Mr Cummings. Not!

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Callistemon21

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Callistemon21

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare
But that nurse was directly in charge of his welfare whilst he was a patient in his/her care.

But we are talking about decisions made about the covid issue by the government, not a nurse whose job is day to day care of her patient, not whether they should live or die!

No, Kandinsky mentioned the nurse and I was answering that.

She/he should not be expressing an opinion on whether or not people are living too long to a relative of an 83 year old she/he is nursing. Uncalled for and totally unprofessional.

🙂

I agree it was unprofessional. However she had no influence at all. The government were responsible for decisions affecting the lives of millions.

Callistemon21

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Callistemon21

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare
But that nurse was directly in charge of his welfare whilst he was a patient in his/her care.

But we are talking about decisions made about the covid issue by the government, not a nurse whose job is day to day care of her patient, not whether they should live or die!

No, Kandinsky mentioned the nurse and I was answering that.

She/he should not be expressing an opinion on whether or not people are living too long to a relative of an 83 year old she/he is nursing. Uncalled for and totally unprofessional.

🙂

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Callistemon21

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare
But that nurse was directly in charge of his welfare whilst he was a patient in his/her care.

But we are talking about decisions made about the covid issue by the government, not a nurse whose job is day to day care of her patient, not whether they should live or die!

No, Kandinsky mentioned the nurse and I was answering that.

She/he should not be expressing an opinion on whether or not people are living too long to a relative of an 83 year old she/he is nursing. Uncalled for and totally unprofessional.

Oh please don’t roll out the Sweden ignored covid and came out of it better than other countries. It’s just not true!

I took from the fact that a DNR notice was put on my file, that if clinicians were to prioritise, and they did have to during the pandemic, then a younger, fitter person had a fighting chance.
I was told that in the event of me catching Covid (this was before the vaccination programme was in place), I would not be admitted to ICU, because I would most likely die from Covid.
It was brutal, but true, but we were in the middle of a pandemic, the like of which we had never seen before.

I really don't think the nurse for one moment was intending to be ageist.

Dominic Cummings is an irrelevance to this Allsorts, the only power he had was in being the tool of Johnson.

Dominic Cummings is a disgrace and should be do 3 for constructive dismissal, how could anyone work for or with him, his found mouth is bad enough now in court, apart from the fact he is a liar, how much worse would he be to work with or for. Impossible. Has anyone forgotten how quickly our vaccinations were rolled out with the elderly getting priority, I don’t want a granny state, I knew the risks and how Covid was transmitted I’m in the vulnerable category , Spain they were cooped up for months on end and didn’t have financial help. Mistakes were made, by all governments I think apart from Bulgaria and Sweden I think who ignored Covid and had no rules, business as usual.

Kandinsky

*Is that what you think yourself Kandinsky?*

Well I certainly think money should be spent on keeping younger people alive yes.
Choice between spending on a 48 year old or an 88 year old then there’s no contest - but maybe that’s what the NHS does anyway?
I know they stop breast & cervical screening at a certain age as they probably think older women aren’t worth it maybe?
But I do know the NHS has admitted an ageing population ( that medicine can now keep alive for so much longer ) is crippling them.
Also, don’t forget, flu has always killed 1000’s of elderly people each winter.

Who is to say how a person’s life should be valued? Age is one criteria, but there are many others. I don’t personally think current productivity to society is the be all and end all, certainly not in a society which is amongst the wealthiest in the world. The real fault was in having absolutely no plan, no contingency, and no willingness to be open with the public, and with a few exceptions, no empathy or compassion. That’s what is the most scary thing coming out of this inquiry.

Callistemon21

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare
But that nurse was directly in charge of his welfare whilst he was a patient in his/her care.

But we are talking about decisions made about the covid issue by the government, not a nurse whose job is day to day care of her patient, not whether they should live or die!

Kadinsky Most older people have paid into the NHS for at least 40 years and most of us have made little use of it until we get older. We have a right to expect proper treatment when we age- we have paid for it.

Screenings for cervical and breast cancer stop at a certain age because they are not effective - either the results produce too many false negatives or do not find things because of the changes in the composition of the older body.. NOT because we are not considered worth it.

You cannot make comparisons on treating people merely on age. What if the 88 year old is an active community worker and a small op means he can continue to be useful in the community for another 3 or 4 years. That happened to my father, he lived to be 92 and was still serving on village commitees. Supposing the 48 year old has a terminal cancer and the treatment will give him at best 6 months more (painful) life, or supposing he is a paedophile serving a life sentence.

These days older people are healthier and can contribute to society for much longer, for the sake of some pills taken daily or a minor procedure.

While we are living and ablewe should all be equally entitled to medical treatment. Decisions to reduce or remove treatmant from anyone should be on medical and welfare grounds, never on age.

Choices are never that simplistic.

Hmm. While I am happy to have a conversation with medical staff about my personal decision to DNR or not, I would be very unhappy for a government to make that decision for me. It smacks of state euthanasia which has been done before in other places. And never ends well

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

As I pointed out earlier - people agree with Johnson' stance.

I don't understand why they don't realise that once you 'open the gate' and go down that road, it will become a slippery slope.

Also, don’t forget, flu has always killed 1000’s of elderly people each winter.

I don't think that is a consequence of a government decision not to do anything to prevent those deaths, is it?

Or am I imagining all those free flu jabs?

They stop calling you for breast and cervical screening but you can still request it and get it.

Is that what you think yourself Kandinsky?

Well I certainly think money should be spent on keeping younger people alive yes.
Choice between spending on a 48 year old or an 88 year old then there’s no contest - but maybe that’s what the NHS does anyway?
I know they stop breast & cervical screening at a certain age as they probably think older women aren’t worth it maybe?
But I do know the NHS has admitted an ageing population ( that medicine can now keep alive for so much longer ) is crippling them.
Also, don’t forget, flu has always killed 1000’s of elderly people each winter.

Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

We all accept that we will die at some time but for it to be expressed in those terms by the non elderly is just abhorrent.

It's not pragmatism; it's ageism.

Of course, as it turned out, it wasn't just the 'elderly' who died, was it? A great many younger people died, too. Very often the NHS staff who were treating the covid patients with totally inadequate PPE..

(And if I were going to be a human sacrifice, I'd rather it was my choice; not a government decision)

Wasn't it Hancock who claimed to have thrown a protective ring around care homes? Is this the same Hancock who said he had a plan pre-Covid according to McNamara?

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Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare
But that nurse was directly in charge of his welfare whilst he was a patient in his/her care.

I think we all knew BJ was out of his depth with the enormity of covid. While he had previously got by with his bombastic rhetoric, this was far more important and his analytical skills just didn't live up to the task.
What really concerns me, however, is that, if as a person in charge, you can't have a private conversation with an aid or a colleague, sometimes about your own private life, without it being broadcast to all and sundry, and twisted this way and that, then we have reached a very sorry impasse.

Kadinsky, I'm unsure if the nurse was being inhuman, but realistic and stating a fact.
Looking at it from a clinical perspective, it could mean that people are living longer for a variety of reasons and consequently greater pressure is being put on the NHS.

During the pandemic, at the age of 65, I was advised that a DNR notice had been put on my file, due to multiple comorbidities.
It wasn't inhuman and I understood totally why.

Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

Is that what you think yourself Kandinsky?

Iam64

What a difference between the calm, clear evidence from Helen McNamara and that of Dominic Cummings. It becomes clear why he used offensive language and misogyny in whatsap messages about her.

I've not followed it because we've been busy so far today but I was very impressed with Helen MacNamara when she appeared in the Laura Kuenssberg programme, State of Chaos.

I have no words for Cummings that are printable.

Kadinsky -was the nurse being inhuman?
There’s some truth in her comment. Just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should.

Do Not Recussitate has its place in a caring medical/family discussion

Kandinsky

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.

But they are not the PM and in charge of the people’s welfare.

My question is, where does it stop?

What about the clinically vulnerable? Many of them are going to die.

What about the severely disabled? Many of them are going to die.

Remind you of another regime?

A NHS nurse treating my 83 year old Dad said to me ‘people are living too long’ - so it’s not just BJ who thinks elderly people should accept their fate.