"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"
A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,
"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.
Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.
Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.
In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"
I don't agree. Nothing can excuse Hamas for it's actions but that does not leave Israel free to behave in any way it wishes. Israel needs to stay within the law and it needs the support of the US and the western world and it is starting to lose it. A recent security council resolution demonstrated this, only the US,UK and Russia abstained. The " moral high ground" may not cut much ice with Hamas but it's vital currency in world opinion.
So far on the breakfast news, IDF have found one of the hostages dead (a women in her sixties) along with a young IDF female soldier in the vicinity of Al Shifa hospital.
There was also footage of IDF lifting the mattress of a young child’s (girl’s) bed to reveal rockets and ammunition.
How is it possible to negotiate with Hamas?
I feel despair for the innocent in Gaza, if only their elected representatives had put them first for the last decade.
Israel has every right to defend itself and to track down those who committed the heinous crimes of 7/10.
I hope Israel stay within international law, as much as is possible in a war situation, if only Hamas had done the same…
Sorry the IDF female soldier was also a hostage, that was not clear in my previous post.
Hamas wants all Jews to be slaughtered. It's that simple.
What do people expect Israel do?
Die?
Also the use of the word genocide is not helpful. This is not genocide. Take a look back at other recent wars in the middle East. The ones where hundreds of thousands were killed. Arab killing Arab.
Why no protest matches about these?
Keep going
Hamas have stated on several TV broadcasts, that they will repeat their actions on 7/10 until every Jew is dead.
There are hostages on both sides, in Israel jails for demonstrating as well as the ones in Gaza. There needs to be an exchange. That needs them to talk to one another, and to see the situation from one another's viewpoint. In numbers and infrastructure the death and destruction is equalised - yes, even in noncombatats and babies. Do you think a mother is less devastated by the death of a child if it was just a "mistake" by an occupying army, or a man less angry when his young son of 13 or 14 was killed for going on a protest about the way other members of the community had been treated?
The bible (OT) prescription is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but the whole community should not pay with both eyes and all their teeth for the actions of one section of it. That is the way to radicalise those who so far have not supported Hamas attacks.
A short temporary ceasefire while discussions are held about exchanging hostages for political prisoners would return them to their homes. That would clear a path for longer talks on the future of the Palestinians - with neutral observers trying to broker the discussions. This is a large minority group who were minding their own business until an act of international humanity in 1948. There must be a compromise solution found or conflicting sympathies abroad will turn this into WW3.
Hamas are winning the propaganda war by a mile, on fact I’m beginning to think they are fighting with little else. The IDF have swept through Gaza city very quickly, they had been expecting booby traps and stiff resistance but we have seen almost no evidence of that. Israel obviously has overwhelming fire power and they have had losses but it’s seems to have been too easy.
Al Shifa hospital was supposed to be a major control centre for Hamas but very little has been found (yet), was it a decoy?, sending fake military messages daring IDF to bomb it and get more propaganda and international pressure. The US backed Israel to take over the hospital, the evidence they had was not found, another propaganda victory for Hamas.
GrannyGravy13
Hamas have stated on several TV broadcasts, that they will repeat their actions on 7/10 until every Jew is dead.
At the moment, Israel is creating lots more Hamas terrorists and losing support from the western world. Even the US is using different language, the wholehearted support is draining away. The only way to stop the killing is with a political solution, killing 1,000s of Palestinians and razing Gaza to the ground is not a solution it will be just another cause. I'm astonished that people can't see this and think anyone suggesting a ceasefire is in some way, anti semitic or stupid. We are not. The atrocities committed by Hamas can never be assuaged but a lasting tribute to them would be that their deaths lead to a lasting peace not this bloodbath and devastation.
maddyone
I started a post and then deleted it. I can’t write down what I’m feeling about this thread except to say I’m concerned about some of the posts on here.
There is no justification for what Hamas did on 7/10 and there is no justification for querying everything that the IDF are doing.
Just what I’m thinking too.
Rather too much querying in an aggressive manner.If anyone disbelieves that hamas would never use all the very many hospitals, schools, and other innocent places to house themselves and weapons and hostages then they need to think again.All those places will have go be searched tho knowing the IDF are close, with all the tunnel systems then hamas will be moving things constantly.It will be hard work but has to be done.That’s why a ceasefire would only benefit hamas and pauses to get food and water in is the best way, even Sunak and Starmer agree on that one.
Talking of what will happen and should happen in the future in Gaza is a way off yet.
Katie59
They knew the IDF were coming, it’s as simple as that.Until the tunnel systems are destroyed to prevent hamas moving themselves and weapons around it will continue.Meanwhile hamas is using public sympathy as propaganda of course.
Eventually they’ll run out of tunnels as they’re destroyed.
Oreo Talking of what will happen and should happen in the future in Gaza is a way off yet.*
The future impact of present actions should always be considered by those making decisions now. Otherwise everyone will always be reacting blindly in hot blood to the immediate and constantly changing situation, and changing it drastically and irretrevably by their choices. If you make problems for the future, you have only exchanged the problem you should be solving now for one that your children will have to solve later.
Israel didn’t act in hot blood they gave Gaza notice of their intentions of a ground offensive, they gave them time to move South.
Unfortunately Hamas operatives prevented a lot of civilians from relocating as they needed them for human shields.
The hiatus did give Hamas time to relocate…
Hamas is in control of The Ministry of Health, until this is over and independent organisations are given free rein to investigate I take a lot of the mis/information coming from Hamas PR with a large handful of salt.
I continue to be concerned and am a bit shocked at the naivety of some people.
There will be no civilised talks until the IDF have completely disabled Hamas.
Civilised discussion requires a degree of civilisation.
Hamas are not civilised. They never were were and they never will be.
It’s always best to have a plan if that’s possible, but y’know sometimes it isn’t possible and the immediate objective just has to be gone after.
Israel knows that Palestinians will always be wanting what they see as their land and so many already hating Jews that it’s a problem now and will continue for a very long time to be a problem so the only way is to contain it.
In the fullness of time there may be room for compromise on all sides but that’s way off yet.
And now they are telling them to move from the South - where are they going to go???
Everyone here will say unequivocally that what Hamas did on 7th of october was horrific and wrong- whatever the history since 1948. EVERYONE.
But the reason Israel is losing sympathy around the world, is bcause of how they reacted- in hot blood indeed, and so indiscriminately- killing 1000s upon 1000s of innocent civilians who had nowhere to go but the very crowded South, and are now told to move from there. To where???
What is happening is the perfect breeding ground for those who will come to replace Hamas, again and again- because teenagers who grow up in such a war, will have hate in their belly and their heart forever.
Gaza was systematically separated from West Bank, who if you looked the area is also a ghetto, with apartheid elements, they have no right to their air, water, infrastructure, borders, etc.
Before you say "but missiles into Israel", let's review the statistics on this as kept and reported by the Israeli:
Rockets fired over "the wall":
Casualties from "Palestinian Militant Rockets" between 2001 and 2023:
- 41 Israeli adult civilians (including 3 Arab-Israelis)
- 10 Israeli armi soldiers
- 4 Israeli children (one 2yo and three 4yo)
- 2 Palestinian children
- 5 Palestinian adult civilians
- 1 Jordanian
- 2 Thai civilians
- 4 "foreign workers"
Total 69
And
- A number of cows and 2 goats
Total of rockets shot over "the fence" 32 500. By my logic, it is safe to say that all these were meant as a protest and not to kill humans, and the 69 people who died in this + 20 year span was more accidental than intentional.
GrannyGravy13
Israel didn’t act in hot blood they gave Gaza notice of their intentions of a ground offensive, they gave them time to move South.
Unfortunately Hamas operatives prevented a lot of civilians from relocating as they needed them for human shields.
The hiatus did give Hamas time to relocate…
Hamas is in control of The Ministry of Health, until this is over and independent organisations are given free rein to investigate I take a lot of the mis/information coming from Hamas PR with a large handful of salt.
👏👏👏
A large handful of salt? A whole mountain of it more like.
maddyone
I continue to be concerned and am a bit shocked at the naivety of some people.
There will be no civilised talks until the IDF have completely disabled Hamas.
Civilised discussion requires a degree of civilisation.
Hamas are not civilised. They never were were and they never will be.
That’s it in a nutshell.
Fortunately my naivety is shared by the leaders of many countries, educated experienced people who run humanitarian agencies and a high proportion of people in most western countries. Whereas your position is supported by a Right Wing Israeli govt and some, not all, Israeli Jews. I'm happy with the company I keep.
Indeed- nothing, but nothing, could have done more harm to the Jewish people, but what Netanyahu has unleashed on Gaza, and the West Bank, since then. Tragic indeed.
The figures above were given to me by another Jewish friend, born and bred in Israel, who also served in the Army and lived in Kibbutz.
As she says, some lives ae definitely worth a lot more than others.
There is only one true litmus test.
If a group of Hamas fighters managed to make it to Tel-Aviv and infiltrate hospitals, schools or community centres, whilst taking hostages and making demands. Would the IDF bomb those institutions killing numerous Israelis to get at Hamas?
Every leader of Hamas can be killed, and each civilian death that comes with it, babies, children, whole families - will ensure that it will spring up in one form of another, with even more justification, and backing from the rest of the Arab, African and South American people, and so many others in the 'West' too. And ensure there will be NO solution possible.
And possibly take us all down too.
If northern Gaza is occupied by IDF what happens next?, most likely the US will force Israel into a ceasefire, with so many refugees in the south Hamas will just melt into the civilian population
Adding my two penn’orth ...
“However, the US said it remained convinced that Hamas had been using the hospital.
John Kirby, the White House’s national security spokesman, said: “We have our own intelligence that convinces us that Hamas was using Al-Shifa as a command and control node, and most likely as well, as a storage facility.
“They were sheltering themselves in the hospital, using the hospital as a shield against military action and placing the patients and medical staff at greater risk. We are still convinced of the soundness of that intelligence.”
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