What is antisemitism?

Fleurpepper

Callistemon21

Fear?

Same for Islamphobia.

Tragically, what is happening nowin Gaza is 'confirming' those fears, for many. Perhaps difficult for many to realise that huge swathes of the world are turning against Netanyahu's illegal settlements and bombing of innocents - and those who support him, like the UK and USA.

Good posts growstuff

Fleurpepper, you seem determined to maintain the distorted belief that you’re in a privileged minority - only people like you could possibly realise Netanyahu and his policies are unpopular. To describe the UK as ‘supporting him’ is not entirely accurate. A difficult line is being negotiated with increasingly loud calls for the Geneva Convention international laws to be followed by Israel.

As for gransnet, I’ve seen no support for Netanyahu. The closest to support is from posters who believe Israel has the right to defend itself. I’ve seen no support for the Carpet bombing of civilians . I’ve seen too little criticism of Hamas and it’s murderous barbaric acts

It needs movement on both sides .

Galaxy

I have been impressed somewhat with the approach of Germany and France in terms of challenging antisemitism.

Germany has had 75 years to challenge antisemitism. Serious antisemitism in France goes back much further. Don't forget Dreyfus and Zola's famous defence of him.

Caleo

Is antisemitism a definable thing, or is it an insult?

It's a word used to describe behaviours in reputable literature.

It's not an insult used in a never-ending propaganda war.

According to the 2016 Plenary in Budapest,

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Is antisemitism a definable thing, or is it an insult?

I have been impressed somewhat with the approach of Germany and France in terms of challenging antisemitism.

Callistemon21

Fear?

Same for Islamphobia.

Tragically, what is happening nowin Gaza is 'confirming' those fears, for many. Perhaps difficult for many to realise that huge swathes of the world are turning against Netanyahu's illegal settlements and bombing of innocents - and those who support him, like the UK and USA.

Narrow life experience, growing up in families where bigotry is a way of life. Can you imagine the way those white male thugs fighting the police influence their children

Fear?

Callistemon21

^A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK^

That is a non-sequitur.

The fact that orthodox Jews may have a certain style of dress does not cause anti-semitism.

The anti-semite recognises a person as a Jew if they follow a certain style of dress or headwear.
To a person who is not anti-semitic it means nothing. The anti-semitism is rather regardless of dress.

In my opening sentence I said that antisemitism stems from a lack of understanding of the religion and its practices. I should have included perhaps.

Some people are open to a wide range of cultures and others aren't. Why is that?

Iam64

Dinahmo, Manchester has the largest Jewish community in the country outside London. The orthodox communities you refer to are not representative of the wider community. I don’t understand why their dress or religious observance would lead to anti semitism

Silver lining, the fear within the Jewish community is based on increasing anti semitism eg swastikas painted on schools, abuse shouted at people
Like any other immigrant community, Jewish people preferred to live near people like themselves. Angel Meadow was a very poor area in the outskirts of Manchester City. In the mid 19century the inhabitants were largely Irish and Jews from Eastern Europe. The two communities helped each other facing Poverty and desperation .
As the Jewish immigrants became established they progressed down the road to Cheetham Hill which is still inhabited by many Jewish families.

I agree with Galaxy. Some who see themselves as guardians of the oppressed don’t see the Jewish community as sufficiently oppressed

I think that many people know little about the more orthodox Jews and don't understand them and it is possible that there is a lack of integration with those groups. In the same way as people find the lack of integration with some Pakestani groups difficult.

there not rather

A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK

That is a non-sequitur.

The fact that orthodox Jews may have a certain style of dress does not cause anti-semitism.

The anti-semite recognises a person as a Jew if they follow a certain style of dress or headwear.
To a person who is not anti-semitic it means nothing. The anti-semitism is rather regardless of dress.

Dinahmo, Manchester has the largest Jewish community in the country outside London. The orthodox communities you refer to are not representative of the wider community. I don’t understand why their dress or religious observance would lead to anti semitism

Silver lining, the fear within the Jewish community is based on increasing anti semitism eg swastikas painted on schools, abuse shouted at people
Like any other immigrant community, Jewish people preferred to live near people like themselves. Angel Meadow was a very poor area in the outskirts of Manchester City. In the mid 19century the inhabitants were largely Irish and Jews from Eastern Europe. The two communities helped each other facing Poverty and desperation .
As the Jewish immigrants became established they progressed down the road to Cheetham Hill which is still inhabited by many Jewish families.

I agree with Galaxy. Some who see themselves as guardians of the oppressed don’t see the Jewish community as sufficiently oppressed

I think it's more to do with the idea that certain sections of society like to think they are the guardian angels or allies of the oppressed, and they dont see Jews as sufficiently oppressed.

I don't think that antisemitism is middleclass, rather it stems from a lack of understanding of the religion and its practices.

I am not being antisemitic in pointing this out. All religions have strange habits as far as I'm concerned. Having been brought up in the Anglican Church I have been an atheist since my late teens.

A few examples which may be of interest. They may go some way to explaining why some people are antisemitic in the UK.

Women wearing wigs to cover their hair when in public. Some women shave their heads. Others wear scarves or hats.

Men wearing long side locks and long beards

Both the above are worn primarily by some Hasidic and Yemenite Jews but not all.

An eruv - what is it?
An eruv is a symbolic enclosure that surrounds the Jewish community. Under Jewish law, carrying on the Sabbath is allowed within the eruv because the entire area within the eruv is considered as if a single property. The area is denoted by ared string tied around trees, telegraph poles etc.

Eruvs are nearly always a contentious topic, and not only within the Jewish community. Eruv construction expands the area in which observant Jews can comfortably live, meaning that more Jews may move to the area, an outcome which upsets anyone prejudiced against Haredim, or Jews more generally.

Here is a link to a Guardian article about plans to establish a new eruv in London. The article is 7 years old:

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/residents-divided-over-plans-for-eruv-in-north-london

I do have feelings about how Israel has treated Palestine but am certainly not antisemetic. I have never understood why they seem to have been universally disliked through history.

My question is this, is abuse being increasingly directed at Jews randomly in real life on the streets or is it the fear of potential abuse that worries them. Personally unless in orthodox dress not sure how anyone Jewish would be recognisable.
I am nervous about being out alone in the dark in case I am assaulted or robbed or whatever. So far nothing has happened but still, my fear stops me from going out at night.
Can it be fear of what might happen that makes Jewish schools get security guards. I don’t know but do wonder.

The English crime writers in the 20’s and 30’s were casually anti semitic

Callistemon makes a good point about Shakespeare's anti-semitism. From Chaucer, through Shakespeare and Dickens to Roald Dahl writers have overtly or covertly displayed antisemitism.
Some antisemitism either seeks to deny its spread or attempts to minimise or divert attention away to other 'more important' considerations.
Being critical of Netanyahu and his government is not antisemitic.

Growstuff’s post yesterday at 22.31 (won’t let me quote). This is it exactly. Jews have been “othered” for centuries, in many countries, for many reasons. That is why they sought a homeland. What, I believe, they did not seek was what they have now in the Netanyahu government. I am from Jewish extraction and I do not support the Israeli government.

It's universal, though, Whitewave, sadly.

So-called civilised countries like the UK, Australia, New Zealand, especially Canada should be ashamed.

There is always a rump in any country that will scapegoat another group. For some it is anyone with a skin that isn’t white, for others it is those whose cultural background is Islamic or Judaism, for others it is those seeking asylum from war, starvation or political persecution.

None of it is rational nor makes sense.

But it is a continued fight that everyone should be aware needs resisting. The word “woke” I think is now used to deride those who are awake and resistant to these prejudices.

Not forgetting Fagin

There is another thread about Starmer.

This is an interesting thread and it would be a pity to sidetrack it with politics.

Witzend

Galaxy

I think or am beginning to think that antisemitism is the racism of the middle class.

I would sincerely hope that it’s not just a ‘middle class’ thing!

IMO there’s always been a strong vein of anti-semitism in the U.K. and of course elsewhere - you only have to read some older novels to see the casual disparaging references to Jews - or to ‘a gentleman of the Hebrew persuasion’ as Trollope once put it. (Though to his credit he did once portray the Jewish suitor of an aristocratic woman, as an infinitely more worthy character than she was.)

Only now, instead of being IMO fairly taboo to express it, because of the current horrendous situation it’s become almost ‘fashionable’ in some circles to express it, and to lump all Jews in with the actions of the current Israeli government.

The Merchant of Venice is a case in point.

Read by generations of school children, performed on stage and taken at face value for many years until it became a favourite of the Nazis and people did realise that it was anti-semitic.

I don't think that, even in the 1950s and 60s, we were taught in school to examine the darker undertones of this play.