What is antisemitism?

Iam64 I agree with your last two posts

Hamas claim they’re fighting for their people while stockpiling food and fuel.

www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html#:~:text=Hamas%20has%20hundreds%20of%20thousands,and%20medicine%2C%20the%20officials%20said.

TerriBull

I'm inclined to agree with Maddyone and Galaxy, it's almost as if anti semetism is an inevitable by product of Netanyahu's Israel, why would so many high profile Jewish individuals say so, and attest as in David Baddiel's book, "Jews Don't Count" that it is the one form of racism that isn't taken seriously. In some ways I find it hard to know why the OP was posed, to not know that anti semetism exists and that culminated in the murder of 6,000,000 of the people of that ethnicity and religion well you must have been living under a stone!

This, exactly.
You find, in life and on forums people saying ‘Oh yes, but’
Then they go on to try and blur the lines as stated and find excuses.Anti-Semitism seems to now be the one form of hatred that many find to be still acceptable.

Unfortunately I agree with Oreo, Galaxy and TerriBull

Insert for Muslim for Jew and it wouldn’t be acceptable here or in the real world.

And if you did it for any group the anger of those same people would descend on you. It's the incoherence that I find most worrying.

Galaxy

And if you did it for any group the anger of those same people would descend on you. It's the incoherence that I find most worrying.

👏👏👏

I think I was trying, (clumsily), to ask myself earlier whether a different kind of anti semitism is now currently evolving with Netanyahu and Israel?
Growstuff asked in a previous post whether hiding one's identity as a Jew was out of fear. I thought about this, and for me as a young person, yes, it was a fear, not of violence, but of being unpopular. No one wanted to miss out on things due to being an "unequal" and ostracised member of school, or society, etc. because anti semitism was always there in a subtle way.
Now, I was kind of wondering whether that insiduous anti semitism has been replaced by a different anti semitism which is defined as opposition to Netanyahu personally? And that that might be far more dangerous in view of what might happen.
My thinking is muddled, but just commenting anyway on what I see happening. In an ideal world any form of hate would be unacceptable whatever.

maddyone

Grany
Israel has not been carpet bombing, whatever you would like to think. They have warned the Palestinian population to move south, but Hamas prevented many of them from doing so. Additionally they have given warnings before firing bombs. They have taken food, water, medicines, and fuel into the hospital in Gaza, but that doesn’t fit your narrative does it?

Sorry Amnesty have investigated some bombing and found that people were not warned and there was no evidence of any military installations. This was in October. www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
How many more people have been bombed since then without warning?

Thanks for thinking about my question Joseann. I'd been thinking about it too and all I was doing was trying to find out what the real situation is.

IMO the nature of antisemitism has changed over our lifetime. My mother was a bigoted racist and antisemitic. Her best friend belonged to a neo-Nazi organisation and they firmly believed that Jews were inferior.

That kind of thinking persists, but it's been joined by an ideology which masquerades as being anti Israeli government but is really antisemitic. There are also some who seem to be people who have genuine concerns for Palestine, but who step over the line and whose thinking is muddled.

It's complicated by the fact that Israel lies and has been caught out lying. Israel's behaviour in the West Bank has been questionable (to say the least) for years. Antisemites use genuine grievances to cover up their real ideology.

Back to antisemitism in the UK ... everybody should be allowed to wear what they want without fear. There is absolutely no excuse for any attacks. I was wondering how much further it goes. If people who aren't obviously Jewish are being attacked, it's worse than I thought.

This is CNN. Not a channel usually known for any bias. The two videos on this site are shocking.
No matter what Israel may say it isn't Hamas who are dying. It's babies, children and ordinary people.
Medics in the Al-shifa hospital deny that Hamas are there. (if you are sensitive perhaps don't watch there are images of dead children, and babies removed from incubators which are not working.) edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/14/gaza-hospital-al-shifa-supplies-incubators-israel-hamas-war-nada-bashir-dnt-tsr-vpx.cnn

We are not blind to the actual bombings, Glorianny, but on this thread how do your links advance us in unravelling our own views on anti semitism, particularly in the UK? Everyone reacts in different ways; what we are trying to do here is to examine the sometimes unreasonable prejudices that exist towards Israel, and to what extent criticism is fair.

Well I'd criticise any government which bombed a country, blockaded it so food, water and fuel were unavailable and killed 12000 civilians.
These are the stages which amount to Genocide. There can be little doubt that Israel is now almost if not completely involved in genocide of Palestinians.
The last point is so applicable
In his original work, Stanton identified eight key stages which resulted in acts of genocide. According to Stanton’s model, some of these stages can happen at the same time or in a different order. In 2012, Stanton expanded on these ideas, and added two further stages (Discrimination and Persecution) to make ten. According to Stanton’s current model, therefore, the stages of genocide are as follows:

Classification – Dividing people into ‘them’ and ‘us’.
Symbolisation – Forcing groups to wear or be associated with symbols which identify them as different.
Discrimination – Excluding groups from participating in civil society, such as by excluding them from voting or certain places. In Nazi Germany, for example, Jews were not allowed to sit on certain park benches.
Dehumanisation – To deny the humanity of one group, and associate them with animals or diseases in order to belittle them.
Organisation – Training police or army units and providing them with weapons and knowledge in order to persecute a group in future.
Polarisation – Using propaganda to polarise society, create distance and exclude a group further.
Preparation – Planning of mass murder and identifying specific victims.
Persecution – Incarcerating groups in ghettos or concentration camps , forcibly displacing groups, expropriating property, belongings or wealth.
Extermination – Committing mass murder.
Denial – Denial of any crimes. This does not necessarily mean denying that the acts of murder happened, but denying that these acts were a crime, and were in fact justified.
Stanton hoped that by identifying these stages it would be easier to recognise genocide before it took place and thus stop it from happening.

MerylStreep

Fleurpepper

Question two- what is Islamophobia or Arabophobia?

Are you asking for help in understanding what the 2 words mean?

No, I am asking why one is totally acceptable and the other not.

Fleurpepper

MerylStreep

Fleurpepper

Question two- what is Islamophobia or Arabophobia?

Are you asking for help in understanding what the 2 words mean?

No, I am asking why one is totally acceptable and the other not.

No, I am asking why one is totally acceptable and the other not.

Why do you think either is acceptable, Fleurpepper?
🤔

Perhaps you may think so but they are not.

I don't think either are acceptable though I have never heard of the latter. Does it actually exist? Then there's Pomophobia which used to be common in the Antipodes...or perhaps Helvetophobia which may or may not exist.

Glorianny

Well I'd criticise any government which bombed a country, blockaded it so food, water and fuel were unavailable and killed 12000 civilians.
These are the stages which amount to Genocide. There can be little doubt that Israel is now almost if not completely involved in genocide of Palestinians.
The last point is so applicable
In his original work, Stanton identified eight key stages which resulted in acts of genocide. According to Stanton’s model, some of these stages can happen at the same time or in a different order. In 2012, Stanton expanded on these ideas, and added two further stages (Discrimination and Persecution) to make ten. According to Stanton’s current model, therefore, the stages of genocide are as follows:

Classification – Dividing people into ‘them’ and ‘us’.
Symbolisation – Forcing groups to wear or be associated with symbols which identify them as different.
Discrimination – Excluding groups from participating in civil society, such as by excluding them from voting or certain places. In Nazi Germany, for example, Jews were not allowed to sit on certain park benches.
Dehumanisation – To deny the humanity of one group, and associate them with animals or diseases in order to belittle them.
Organisation – Training police or army units and providing them with weapons and knowledge in order to persecute a group in future.
Polarisation – Using propaganda to polarise society, create distance and exclude a group further.
Preparation – Planning of mass murder and identifying specific victims.
Persecution – Incarcerating groups in ghettos or concentration camps , forcibly displacing groups, expropriating property, belongings or wealth.
Extermination – Committing mass murder.
Denial – Denial of any crimes. This does not necessarily mean denying that the acts of murder happened, but denying that these acts were a crime, and were in fact justified.
^Stanton hoped that by identifying these stages it would be easier to recognise genocide before it took place and thus stop it from happening.^

Five countries ask International Criminal Court to investigate the situation in Palestinian territories

By Michael Rios, CNN

Ceasefire Now

A salient point in Islamaphobia, is possibly ignoring the elephant in the room, the numerous acts of terrorism committed in the name of Allah, the twin towers being the most prominent. That is NOT to say that it is ever justifiable to lay that at the door of the wider Muslim community anymore than the sins of the Israeli government should be attributed to Jewish communities. However like the disquiet many felt at the height of the IRA bombing campaigns, there will always be a twictchiness and possible anger as to "when's the next one coming"

TerriBull

A salient point in Islamaphobia, is possibly ignoring the elephant in the room, the numerous acts of terrorism committed in the name of Allah, the twin towers being the most prominent. That is NOT to say that it is ever justifiable to lay that at the door of the wider Muslim community anymore than the sins of the Israeli government should be attributed to Jewish communities. However like the disquiet many felt at the height of the IRA bombing campaigns, there will always be a twictchiness and possible anger as to "when's the next one coming"

And yet for the US the greatest increase in acts of terrorism is from individuals who are far-right extremists www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/28/lone-wolf-far-right-terror-attack-warning
I wonder who asks "when is the next white person going to shoot/bomb people?"

It is quite obviously evidence of Islamophobia. Although interestingly the source of the funding for 9/11 and the funding for ISIS came from countries the West actively engages with and considers friends- Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

I do think the issue of antisemitism and the destruction being wreaked on Gaza by the state of Israel should be regarded as completely separate issues.

Undoubtedly antisemitism, like all forms of racism and prejudice still exists, but implying that it is a reason either to ignore Israel's war crimes, or to refuse to support people in Gaza, is not only inhumane, it is an insult to all the Jewish people who oppose the regime in Israel and recognise the wrongs done to the Palestinians.

"I wonder who asks "when is the next person going to shoot/bomb people" Look I wouldn't disagree with that assertion, it's a fact! One of the worst aspects about the US are those shoot outs and the pro gun lobby, and as you say some of those attacks emanate from deranged white wing extremists.

Just looking at the word phobia, which to my understanding means "fear" possibly an irrational one, phobia could be attached to any demographic who the general public have come to fear and sometimes those fears are justified Once again I would reiterate that one can't lay outrage over terrorist attacks, at the wider community though.

Fleurpepper

Question two- what is Islamophobia or Arabophobia?

There was a good reason why I asked. Because Islamophobia is currently rife, and all Palestinians considered, by some, probably many, to be likened to Hamas.

Semitic

adjective

Se·​mit·​ic sə-ˈmi-tik

: of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic

Antisemitism is hatred of Jews. “From the river to the Sea” is a call for the destruction of Israel and a desire to rid the territory of Jews. I read a Spectator article last week about why Islam devotees hate Jews, ( this DOES NOT INCLUDE ALL MUSLIMS) The hatred comes from the Quran which is Islam’s holy book. We must consider that like the Bible we must reconsider what is written in our Holy books as our social views now outgrow some of the writings ( most Christian’s do not abominate homosexuality or punish adulterers and other biblical beliefs, but it is my understanding that Muslims have laws that punish cruelly homosexuality and adulterers. The treatment of women is horrendous in SOME Muslim countries such as Iran. I could go on but antisemitism is a weapon of Islam however much many reasonable Muslims may say. That is not to say that no other religion is anti Jewish. I encountered it in Australia in the fifties. I never forgot my landlord saying how much he hated the Jews because they killed our Saviour, Jesus Christ. I was flabbergasted by such an awful remark. Please do not tell me I am far right when I am worried about the willingness of SOME Muslims and our fellow countrymen to loathe the Jews. Go to NW London and talk to Jewish people who are scared to go out and have guards on schools. Children do not wear uniforms that denote their faith. This is not acceptable. Nor is it to attack Muslims and tear off Hijabs. I do not know the answers to any religious divide in society but it is not looking good for the future. I now await the insults that follow anyone who expresses fear of Islam. What is “far right”?it seems to be anyone who wants to limit immigration. It is an insult used to shut people up. I am not a raging “fascist” nor a racist nut a very ordinary old woman not frightened by such epithets flung by ill informed users of such language.

The [Labour] Party has investigated, disciplined or expelled 55 Jewish members for anti-Semitism, 2 of whom died during the process."
Jewish Grandmother Diana Neslen recounts her painful experiences at the hands of the Labour Party for campaigning on behalf of Palestinians.

x.com/RaggedTP/status/1728805644910657778?s=20

Thanks Grany. That is extraordinary. What a brave woman.

Antisemitism is hatred of Jews. It can be manifest in many ways, small or large. Comments, physical attacks, painting symbols on Jewish homes, businesses, or institutions, or even killings as on 7/10 or during the Holocaust.
It is simply hatred of Jews.
That’s what it is, the reasons are very complex.
It is abhorrent and completely unacceptable ever.