6 Day Doctors Strike

But we should all be concerned about the use of PAs in medical practice. I think I’d rather see a nurse practitioner than a PA to be honest.

Oh thank you Casdon, I thought as much but she seems worried about it. I hope she comes home soon but circumstances are difficult for her at the moment. I miss her so much and we want to help her more but it’s difficult when we’re so far away for most of the year.

There are literally hundreds of GP posts currently advertised in the UK maddyone, I just had a quick look online. These weren’t either/or jobs, they were specifically for GPs.
According to the GMC there are currently around 3000 PAs in the UK, across all fields of medicine, not just general practice. There are around 37,000 GPs. I really don’t think your daughter would have any difficulty at all finding a GP job should she return to the UK, which I hope she decides to do.

Incidentally I’m currently in New Zealand, where my doctor daughter lives and works. She tells me pay isn’t greatly better here, but conditions of work are much better. She would like to return home to live, but at the moment, personal circumstances prevent this, but she also tells me, if she was returning now, she would have to compete with PAs to get a job. PAs have only done one quarter of the initial training she did. She was at medical school at a London university for six years (three years engaged in clinical practice) and then did F1 and F2 at a hospital outside London. That was merely her basic training. She went on to do a further year in Mental Health and followed that that by three full years training to be a GP which involved sitting further examinations. Why should she have to compete with an under trained PA (trained for only two years) to get a job? But that’s what’s happening and it’s frightening. People will undoubtedly die as a result of this situation. Sometimes it’s difficult for a fully trained doctor to diagnose a condition, so why are we happy to allow people with so little training to diagnose?
It’s really quite frightening!

I don’t know, but I suspect that excess deaths are being caused by the delay in diagnosis and therefore treatment. The delays must be being caused by too many patients served by too few medics.
I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want doctors to be paid properly for the work they do. I don’t understand why anyone would resent their pensions. I don’t understand why anyone would be happy with PAs, only trained for two years, to be replacing doctors. I don’t understand why anyone is unconcerned about the number of doctors who are leaving the country to work abroad where they can enjoy higher salaries and a better work/life balance.

Iam64 Greece produces very fine doctors and one of my sons has had firm diagnosis from a Greek doctor which sadly wasn’t forthcoming from anyone here. You do realise that Greece produces more doctors than it needs? I wish they would come here!
There’s so much information online about excess deaths if one has the inclination to look…. I shall try to appreciate my husband more and I am sorry for your loss.

Gloryanny - thank you so much for setting out the background to the doctors strike

Greece is struggling to retain doctors, they’re off to Germany for more money and better conditions

If we are using our husband’s as the source of knowledge, I can bring in mr i who died 15 month ago. But- he raged about the increasing death rate and corresponding lower age of death. This doesn’t mean he agrees with ronib’ a husband. Part of Mr i’s job was to track death rates in the large local authority he was employed in. He tracked the increase and linked it directly to the austerity programme.

ronib

GSM you might have enjoyed working for NHS Resolution? I think family friendly working conditions apply. Probably not around when you were looking for work?

Not my field. I was a transactional lawyer working for property developers. Not a litigation lawyer. Nothing remotely family friendly about what I did.

SueDonim

On the topic of excess deaths, there is a report today about that very same occurring in Scotland, where doctors are not on strike.

Same in Wales SueDonim, a lot of it seems to be attributed to delays in diagnosis during the pandemic.
The negotiation in the other nations has been more successful at warding off junior doctor strikes so far than it has in England, because there has been continuing dialogue with the doctors unions. However, they cannot unilaterally raise the pay rates significantly.

NHS Resolution is paying out significant sums for negligence in the NHS £2.6 billion I believe. The House of Lords has expressed concern at this level of payment.
Let’s see what next week brings? The strike should be over in a few days so negotiations may resume. Or not …

On the topic of excess deaths, there is a report today about that very same occurring in Scotland, where doctors are not on strike.

I doubt your friend were on the wards and clinics within six weeks of matriculating, Ronib. Back then, medicine was lecture hall based and they didn’t see a patients for years. It’s not as if the old style of studying medicine produced a generation of stellar doctors, either. I’m sure many of us have stories of poor service by older doctors, being ignored, patronised, or told not to worry our silly little heads especially when it comes to childbirth and babies.

ronib

Glorianny my husband seems to think that excess deaths are occurring now.

No you have misunderstood entirely. No one is suggesting that doctors should not be paid a reasonable rate with good working conditions. However what is beginning to be beyond acceptable is the way these negotiations are handled.

Bit of a red herring about male doctors assaulting female doctors? I wasn’t expecting that.

They may be, but I gave you two examples to look at because I think if there is evidence that as unacceptable deaths took place here during covid, not elsewhere, and are also happening now, the common denominator cannot be the doctors' strike.

I agree about the negotiations but if the government will not engage in debate what else can be done?

I think saying female doctors just want more money is far more unacceptable and my post reveals one reason they step back from advancement.

GSM you might have enjoyed working for NHS Resolution? I think family friendly working conditions apply. Probably not around when you were looking for work?

A lot of female doctors become GPs, where part time working by female doctors with children seems almost to be the norm if my current and previous surgeries are anything to go by. A considerable bonus for a woman who wants to keep her professional status, earn good money and work part time. I would have loved the ability to do that.

Glorianny my husband seems to think that excess deaths are occurring now.

No you have misunderstood entirely. No one is suggesting that doctors should not be paid a reasonable rate with good working conditions. However what is beginning to be beyond acceptable is the way these negotiations are handled.

Bit of a red herring about male doctors assaulting female doctors? I wasn’t expecting that.

ronib

Glorianny you do realise that people are dying at a rate of knots? There’s something called excess deaths which my husband talks about from time to time.
I tried to ignore it but feeling decidedly under the weather today.
How about I focus on the patients and you worry about the medics?
From observation I don’t think that pay is the only reason for doctors resigning from the profession especially where young mothers are concerned.
I think doctors themselves need to ask why they wanted to be doctors. I can’t second guess why. I think some female aspiring doctors seem highly motivated to make a high income and talk about aspirations to drive a BMW in one example. The reality probably doesn’t live up to the dream. Maybe university admissions need to be more probing about what applicants expect from medicine?

Golly I don't know where to start. The idea that medics are somehow ignoring patients is totally unfounded. Excess deaths are not the result of the doctor's strike. I suggest you compare the number of excess deaths during covid in the UK with the number in Ireland. Doctors were working extraordinary hours, we stood and clapped for them. The deaths were due to the NHS being massively neglected by this government.

As for the comments about female doctors. There is still a huge pay gap between women doctors and male doctors. Men still dominate the highest levels and are paid more. Only 12% of consultant surgeons are women. But apparently they are motivated by high income.

"The reality doesn't live up to the dream"-well that's probably true as women are reporting being assaulted by male doctors when in training www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66775015

Trying to blame doctors because they are asking for decent pay and reasonable working hours is insupportable. Patients are suffering because the NHS is massively underfunded and this government has no commitment to a publicly funded service. That's why patients are dying.

SueDonim both my friends were extremely brilliant in their roles. Their argument was that there’s so much to know about the human body that they were able to see examples of conditions that today’s students won’t have experienced as they are exposed to half. My friends also say that they appreciated the opportunity to study in this way when they were young enough to take the hours. One of them had the highest marks in his original country when he graduated.

Glorianny you do realise that people are dying at a rate of knots? There’s something called excess deaths which my husband talks about from time to time.
I tried to ignore it but feeling decidedly under the weather today.
How about I focus on the patients and you worry about the medics?
From observation I don’t think that pay is the only reason for doctors resigning from the profession especially where young mothers are concerned.
I think doctors themselves need to ask why they wanted to be doctors. I can’t second guess why. I think some female aspiring doctors seem highly motivated to make a high income and talk about aspirations to drive a BMW in one example. The reality probably doesn’t live up to the dream. Maybe university admissions need to be more probing about what applicants expect from medicine?

Ronib wrote ^ However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.^

If I should be stricken down with an illness, I don’t want to be treated by an exhausted doctor in their 91st hour of work. I want someone fresh and alert who isn’t trying to stay awake.

I certainly don’t agree that the doctors are putting patients first by demanding this pay rise - quite the opposite. They don’t give a stuff.

ronib

Glorianny seems to me that after tax, young doctors in Greece are being paid at the level of other young professionals there.
So in reality young graduates in a lot of the life sciences and year 1 and 2 doctors are paid about the same in the UK. Although research scientists and academics need extensive training too and the pay can be meagre. They are not throwing their toys out of the pram and I think it’s time to put patients first.

Research scientists do excellent work. But they are not on call and they do not take responsibility for huge number of patients as doctors do particularly on national holidays. The pay they receive is comparable to doctors, the responsibilities are not.
If you don't understand that doctors are putting patients first by asking for decent pay which will ensure doctor retention and provide a proper health service, then you simply don't. It doesn't mean you are right. Why on earth do you think people want to be doctors in the first place?

Casdon we must agree to disagree.

Glorianny seems to me that after tax, young doctors in Greece are being paid at the level of other young professionals there.
So in reality young graduates in a lot of the life sciences and year 1 and 2 doctors are paid about the same in the UK. Although research scientists and academics need extensive training too and the pay can be meagre. They are not throwing their toys out of the pram and I think it’s time to put patients first.