6 Day Doctors Strike

The BMA is the doctors trade union ronib. It represents the interests of doctors, just as all TUs represent their members. Not all doctors are members of the BMA. The BMA is not an unreasonable organisation, it does however have excellent negotiators working on behalf of its members. This government has failed consistently to recognise, understand the dynamics of, or work constructively with trade unions. The fault doesn’t lie with the BMA.

ronib

I don’t want to play games as I am feeling quite ill. However it is very clear that the NHS is not a free agent and is manacled to a trade union in the shape of the BMA.
The BMA has chosen to demand 35 percent pay rise etc etc and to hold key strikes in winter at the time of greatest demand on the NHS.
The BMA is also in dispute over whether striking doctors can be made to return to work early.
Where is the voice of the patient in all this?
I don’t think that doctors in Italy or Greece are magnificently paid but at least these countries have some semblance of a health system.
The Reform Party has an idea of offering vouchers to patients to use in the private sector if waiting for treatment is unreasonably long. Probably healthcare care abroad should be offered too but it might be tricky getting there.

I say again where is the voice of the patient?

I wonder why you consider having properly paid doctors is against the patient's interests? I want doctors who earn more than shelf stackers or dog walkers, who are properly paid for the work they do.
Doctors in Italy actually work between the public and private sector at all levels.
In Greece
The average doctor gross salary in Greece is 90.923 € or an equivalent hourly rate of 44 €. In addition, they earn an average bonus of 3.746 €. Salary estimates based on salary survey data collected directly from employers and anonymous employees in Greece. An entry level doctor (1-3 years of experience) earns an average salary of 61.226 €. On the other end, a senior level doctor (8+ years of experience) earns an average salary of 117.289
OMG The Reform Party!!! Heaven forbid!
If you are really interested patient participation is actively encouraged www.england.nhs.uk/aac/what-we-do/patient-and-public-involvement/#:~:text=We%20work%20with%20patients%2C%20people,diverse%20perspectives%20into%20our%20work.&text=Working%20with%20our%20patient%20partners,public%20involvement%20strategy%202021%2D2026.

Drowned out by the chants of the strikers.

I don’t want to play games as I am feeling quite ill. However it is very clear that the NHS is not a free agent and is manacled to a trade union in the shape of the BMA.
The BMA has chosen to demand 35 percent pay rise etc etc and to hold key strikes in winter at the time of greatest demand on the NHS.
The BMA is also in dispute over whether striking doctors can be made to return to work early.
Where is the voice of the patient in all this?
I don’t think that doctors in Italy or Greece are magnificently paid but at least these countries have some semblance of a health system.
The Reform Party has an idea of offering vouchers to patients to use in the private sector if waiting for treatment is unreasonably long. Probably healthcare care abroad should be offered too but it might be tricky getting there.

I say again where is the voice of the patient?

ronib

I can’t follow your logic. I don’t have the need to attribute blame but isn’t it about time this country had access to decent healthcare?
Why are you supporting a professional body which is out to harm people?
Doctors here are not particularly underpaid. I believe it’s working conditions which doctors dislike. However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.

Why is the BMA "out to harm people" That's completely illogical and biased. They voted in 2008 for conditions as they were then. You are now criticising them after 15 years of underfunding. As for the doctors' salaries

Doctors in their second year typically earn between £43,000-£49,000 according to health job website Messly, which is £9,000-£15,000 more than doctors in their second year of work in England.

This recent job posting shows Australia recruiting consultants at a yearly rate of $357,930- $456,008 Australian dollars. This is equivalent to between £190,000 and £243,000 a year.

Some consultant job posts offer up to $8,000 (about £4,250) in addition to pay to cover international applicants’ flight and relocation costs.

Since 2003, consultants in England have been on a contract that now pays between £88,364 and £119,113 a year

Meanwhile in Ireland, the new consultant pay scale starts at the equivalent of around £185,000, rising to £223,000.
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-uk-doctors-are-going-abroad-and-how-does-pay-compare
So your assertion that doctors are not underpaid is manifestly untrue.
Why are you blaming a professional body's democratic decision taken 15 years ago for a doctor's strike now. When it is obvious that this government is causing the real harm?

I don’t have the need to attribute blame

Blaming the BMA for the current shortfall in doctors is not attributing blame, ronib?

I can’t follow your logic. I don’t have the need to attribute blame but isn’t it about time this country had access to decent healthcare?
Why are you supporting a professional body which is out to harm people?
Doctors here are not particularly underpaid. I believe it’s working conditions which doctors dislike. However my retired consultant friends were on 90 hours initially when they started out about 50 years ago.

Possibly but blaming the BMA because they didn't anticipate under paid doctors leaving the UK and others refusing to come here really isn't supportable. As I said they voted when the NHS was properly funded and supported by the government before the Tories started destroying it.

I am sure that Europeans are being replaced by other people who for some reason do choose to work here? Probably data to show current trends.

ronib

Glorianny it seems the BMA could not calculate the rise in population numbers, the aging population and the need not to have a backlog approaching 7 plus million. Tough on the end users.

Those are not the only factors though are they? Nearly 5000 doctors left the UK in 2022, possibly not something the BMA imagined would happen when the NHS was being properly supported. Another 4000 are Europeans who chose not to come to the UK after Brexit.

Gransnet discussed this about a year ago when MaizieD started the discussion.

I have seen reports that consultants were reluctant to increase their work load to train more students but can’t remember where it was reported.

Glorianny it seems the BMA could not calculate the rise in population numbers, the aging population and the need not to have a backlog approaching 7 plus million. Tough on the end users.

ronib

Glorianny yes it is very difficult to understand - can anyone explain? The BMA does not want/is unable to/ burden its members with the task of training up too many student doctors. Is this true?

That isn't. exactly what happened. The BMA gave a vote to their members. The result was very close 52% to 48% One point of view was that there wouldn't be enough vacancies for all medical students to obtain jobs and opening new training places would simply make that worse.
Nothing to do with the task of training student doctors but with ensuring they are employed when they leave university.
Let's remember in 2008 there was a Labour government supporting and funding the NHS. The BMA couldn't forsee the Tory devastation which would follow.
www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

How about the numbers are capped at the level the BMA has previously agreed? That’s logical from one point of view but not from another.

Glorianny yes it is very difficult to understand - can anyone explain? The BMA does not want/is unable to/ burden its members with the task of training up too many student doctors. Is this true?

ronib

foxie48 in 2008 the BMA voted against increasing medical school places and against the building of new teaching universities. How is the BMA not accountable for the mess we’re in?

Difficult to see how a vote taken 16 years ago and only carried by a small majority can be blamed for the current situation.
The government caps medical student numbers, but has lifted the cap when it suited them commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/#:~:text=The%20UK%20Government%20has%20said,quality%20placements%20for%20each%20student.%E2%80%9D

The Toxic Tories won't negotiate because they want to bring the NHS down and privatise.

They do. I was such a person. They work set hours, and have flexitime and a generous pension scheme. It is not remotely comparable to working in private practice. Compared to private practice it’s a picnic.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't a lot of Public Organisations have their own in house legal team who are paid less than your average solicitor's practise? I know our Council does.

MaizieD properties built locally are advertised on Chinese tv. Let’s try to keep to the point though.

ronib

MaizieD overseas investors are in the majority for buying up Uk property. Okay?
And therefore?

Do property developers not build little (or big) housing estates all over the country? Are you telling me that the Chinese are snapping these houses up when they come on the market?

MaizieD overseas investors are in the majority for buying up Uk property. Okay?
And therefore?

growstuff, my paying clients were not private individuals or public authorities so the question doesn’t arise.

ronib

MaizieD do we think property developers make legitimate profits from- building houses/flats/offices and selling them on or renting them out?
Am intrigued to see where your argument is going?

Well, if you'd answer my question you might find out!

China is not a major purchaser of property in the UK. Who are the major purchasers?