6 Day Doctors Strike

Growstuff I don’t know what counts as huge? Around £10k ? Smaller payments depending on subject.
Don’t forget that a mathematics degree can pay out in finance, accountancy, actuary and teaching is the poor relation.

Germanshepherdsmum

I expect so, unless their parents are sufficiently well off to pay off their loans as we did for our son’s tuition fees - he wouldn’t have qualified for a loan for maintenance costs. It has cost many thousands to train the doctors and they are under no obligation to remain in the NHS - whyever would the NHS pay off their loans? I know of no public or private sector employer which pays off an employee’s student debt.

As an incentive.

Incidentally, some teachers in shortage subjects receive huge incentive payments at the beginning of their careers.

"Funding is available if you're studying to become a doctor or dentist and you're:

studying a 5 or 6-year undergraduate course (you can apply from year 5)
studying a 3 or 4-year graduate-entry course (you can apply from year 2)"

I know in Wales 4 years ago you had to agree to work in the NHS for a couple of years if you get funding. I don't know whether it is the same in England.

The doctors may be due a pay rise, but to ask for 35% is just bloody ridiculous.

Following on from #GSM and #Freya's posts. Please see the below from the BMJ for information. This is a bit out of date as it's dated Aug 2022. The payscale seems reasonable to me for doctors on foundation level and just starting out.

www.bmj.com/careers/article/the-complete-guide-to-nhs-pay-for-doctors

I’m clearing misunderstanding the OP who spoke about “ Most of the professionals I have known have had to pay for their own career qualifications, Dr's at least get some of theirs paid for them for a very small return of having to work for the NHS for a couple of years to avoid repaying these fees.” I was assuming she meant medical school fees?

Now not really sure what she meant ?

A physician Associate is supposed to closely supervised by a doctor . By giving an account an every patient that he /she sees and any decisions made on treatment or ongoing care.In the hospital this is all followed up on closely but not so much in a G P surgery . I read recently about a patient died of a pulmonary embolism because the associate didn’t recognise the signs of a blood clot in the calf and sent the patient home without further advice . This will probably happen again and again because they are not trained doctors.

I expect so, unless their parents are sufficiently well off to pay off their loans as we did for our son’s tuition fees - he wouldn’t have qualified for a loan for maintenance costs. It has cost many thousands to train the doctors and they are under no obligation to remain in the NHS - whyever would the NHS pay off their loans? I know of no public or private sector employer which pays off an employee’s student debt.

cossy As for our govt banning the right to strike, this sums up our current govt and I hope those who support this are very happy when we left with few rights on the workplace (rewriting EU based employment laws, rewriting the Human Rights Act, attempting to ban peaceful protect) Be careful what you wish for!

No one is banning the right to strike in the Uk. That is a scaremongering statement. Even in the Sainted EU countries in Europe they are not one homogeneous group. Different EU countries have different rules one who may be allowed to strike - not all the same by any means - and different ‘expected levels of service’ within a given strike action if called.

By the way, I’m not aware that medical students get their students loans refunded by working for the NHS? My understanding is medical students, like all other students currently, have to take out student loans for both fees and maintenance and then pay that back, with interest, just like any other student?

“Yes, don’t agree with GSM with this particular comment. As I said earlier, I DO support this strike, and I do agree that their starting salaries are too low (imo) and surely not every junior doctor can ultimately become a consultant? Is this how it works? Surely there’s far less consultants in each hospital than registrars? I’m not quite sure all hospital doctors will become consultants?”

A lot become consultants or GPs others go into Admin, Research or Teaching roles, mostly within the NHS pay scale, some continue full time, many part time especially women.

Ronib

Very few professions, and in all honesty, I can see the logic in the armed forces not being able to strike, but would support prison officers and police if they were doing this as a last resort.

I just don’t think strikes are ever taken lightly by those choosing to take this action, my own daughter, a primary school teacher, recently went on strike, it’s not always just about their salaries, but work and conditions and, in a lot of teachers cases, school funding models.

Let’s just respectfully agree to disagree.

I feel strongly about people being legally allowed to stand up to their employers, as a last resort.

I am afraid that Junior Doctors weren't the only ones who have suffered from wage deflation over the years but they are the ones putting lives at risk asking for an eye watering amount. Most of the professionals I have known have had to pay for their own career qualifications, Dr's at least get some of theirs paid for them for a very small return of having to work for the NHS for a couple of years to avoid repaying these fees.
There are hundreds of very suitable young people desperate to become Drs even knowing what the pay is like but the lack of training places mean they are just not able to train. Let's throw some money at that rather than lining the pockets of people who trained to do the job and are now striking whilst people are dying.
If we are going to pay a huge amount to retain these Junior Doctors, maybe we can make them more accountable. My experience is that they are often dismissive or will only see a horse rather than the zebra in front of them.
I'm just off to put my tin hat on!

There is none.

But there are already bans on the right to strike in the Uk for some professions. Can’t quite follow the logic Cossy.

Well responded Cossy. The attitudes of some people are shocking. Disagree with strike action if you want to, express good reasons for your position but don’t call an entire profession charlatans

Charlatans?

A colleague of mine has a son going through med school at the moment. It’s not easy, it was awful even for him (& his fellow students) to get their first year F1 placements, it’s in no way an easy ride and many many people genuinely enter the medical profession because they want to help people.

My cousin is a Consultant at a large Children’s Hospital, he’s chosen not to ever undertake private work, his workload is horrendous, the stress levels are high.

My goddaughter is a paediatric oncology nurse.

Don’t call these hardworking NHS professionals “charlatans” most are hardworking, dedicated, empathic professionals!

Judging a person’s professionalism because you felt that looked happy in a very short TV clip (highly edited) doesn’t mean they don’t care or that even want to strike! Most professions do not want to strike, for a start you don’t get paid!

As for our govt banning the right to strike, this sums up our current govt and I hope those who support this are very happy when we left with few rights on the workplace (rewriting EU based employment laws, rewriting the Human Rights Act, attempting to ban peaceful protect) Be careful what you wish for!

Just looking at the junior doctors on TV happy smiling faces while people will die from delayed appointments and my niece in agony for 14 days on their previous strike. Do will really want these people with no care or compassion caring for us when we are desperately ill? Government could open up immigration to qualified doctors abroad and hopefully get rid of these charlatans.

‘Government’s’ own website.

According to the gift’s own website, PA’s should not be prescribing. healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2023/11/03/physician-and-anaesthesia-associate-roles-in-the-nhs-fact-sheet/

If you don’t wish to click on the link, this is a quote. Can they prescribe medication?

PAs and AAs cannot currently prescribe medication as this is only considered for roles that are statutorily regulated.

Be aware of who you are dealing with.

The present government plans to do that, and rightly so. Members of the armed forces are also not allowed to strike - not handsomely paid but they too have huge responsibilities and risk (and of course frequently lose) their lives.

Police and prison officers are not allowed to strike and their salaries are not huge. I think it’s time for the government of any hue to bring in legislation to protect patients and stop doctors from striking.

Yes, don’t agree with GSM with this particular comment. As I said earlier, I DO support this strike, and I do agree that their starting salaries are too low (imo) and surely not every junior doctor can ultimately become a consultant? Is this how it works? Surely there’s far less consultants in each hospital than registrars? I’m not quite sure all hospital doctors will become consultants?

No one should be paid less because their role is considered “vocational”, I guess the moral issue is how all of our lives are dependent on our economic climate and that many people do indeed value those generating income more highly than those educating our children and looking after our health.

I don’t like this, but I guess like many of us see no easy way to fix this.

There’s so much wrong in our society I sometimes feel we’ve all lost sight of what really matters in life.

To me, without our health and without education our lives are a little worthless!

I’m extremely grateful we have an NHS, they’ve saved my life and that of my husband’s and in earlier times both of my parents lives.

Optomistic1

I retired from the NHS a few years ago and was a director so I know exactly how much doctors earn and I am disappointed to hear the BMA not tell the whole truth over any doctors salary. All junior doctors have to do nights which gives them a approx 35% uplift in their salary. This is not mentioned anywhere. In addition to this many of them chose to work extra shifts over their 40 hours and believe me they can earn a lot of money doing this.
However the real shock is what the BMA recommend consultants should be paid to cover additional work ie things like covering the lingering junior dr strike. I have just down loaded this from the BMA website to get the most up to date figures. These rates range from £161 AN HOUR to £269 an hour.

So a consultant covering a junior dr night shift of 12 hours will earn £3228 for 12 hours work. This will be in addition to their normal salary.

My ex colleagues tell me many consultants are earning £10k plus during the junior drs strike days in addition to their salaries ( and don’t forget the clinical excellence awards but that’s another issue)

The junior drs of today will be consultants one day so I personally don’t support them atall and feel that the BMA is using them as political pawns. I know lots of doctors who do not support these strikes due to the harm it is causing patients whilst colleagues are financially benefiting.

I am sure some people will disagree with me which is fine but the facts about salaries are out there is people what to see them. Don’t believe everything you are told by the left wing BMA.

I wish you’d be invited onto a GBNews panel to discuss these figures with a BMA union doctor! Now that’s a discussion many would tune in to watch.

I know of a handful of doctors who have cancelled their BMA membership subscriptions as they feel that union has become too militant. I suppose they’ve joined another (less strident) union.

The point I’d like to make is that many of these young doctors weren’t working for the NHS in 2008. They joined after and must have been okay about the pay when they did so?

It absolutely is a moral discussion when people say that doctors should be selfless because of their vocation Cossy.