Labour's latest policy announcement

We don’t know that Mone committed fraud. People speak very loosely about fraud. It is a crime requiring intent to defraud. We don’t yet know specifically what happened with any PPE contracts which failed to result in the required goods being delivered. The National Crime Agency is investigating the payment received by Mone.

Perhaps Labour intends to implement the recommendations of the Sept 2023 Public Accounts Committee Report 'Tackling Fraud and Corruption against Government'

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmpubacc/1230/report.html

While some posters are eager to latch on to benefit fraud the figures given in the report demonstrate that benefits are not the primary source of fraud.

2. There are large gaps in government’s understanding of the extent and location of fraud and corruption risks. Most departments are exposed to several types of fraud and corruption risk in their income and spending, but few produce regular, reliable, and comprehensive estimates of the level of fraud and corruption of their risky areas. Government expects the number of fraud measurement experts across public bodies to increase from 99 to around 180. But the current system of fraud measurement does not tell us, beyond the well-known problems in tax and benefits, where the problems are or which public bodies are most affected. Where government does attempt to measure fraud, it often includes more innocent errors because it finds it difficult to establish the intent behind the misinformation provided. Conflating error with fraud can give the impression that government is underestimating and obscuring where the real fraud problems are. PSFA estimates that, for the two thirds of government expenditure where it does not have specific estimates, the level of fraud and error is somewhere between 0.5% and 5% of expenditure. This implies that in addition to the £10 billion of tax fraud and £6.4 billion of benefit fraud last year (2022–23), government lost somewhere between £2.5 billion to £28.5 billion from fraud and error, but it does not know exactly where or how.

I'm not sure if the PAC included this in their estimation of fraud and error loss in two thirds of government expenditure (see extract above)

www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/government-writes-off-ps43bn-in-stolen-covid-payments

Germanshepherdsmum

We don’t know that Mone committed fraud. People speak very loosely about fraud. It is a crime requiring intent to defraud. We don’t yet know specifically what happened with any PPE contracts which failed to result in the required goods being delivered. The National Crime Agency is investigating the payment received by Mone.

If it wasn't fraud, GSM, it was corruption...

We don’t yet know that Maizie. Until I know more I keep an open mind. It was an unprecedented situation and PPE was required, in vast quantities, from wherever it could be procured, without delay. The luxury of following normal tender procedures wasn’t there. I will await the outcome of the NCI investigation. Corruption is the offering of an undue reward to a person in public office in order to influence their behaviour in office and incline them to act contrary to the known rules of honesty and integrity (Russell on Crime). A word which, like fraud, tends to be bandied about.

FullFact.
fullfact.org/health/covid-ppe-fraud-rishi-sunak/

Germanshepherdsmum

We don’t yet know that Maizie. Until I know more I keep an open mind. It was an unprecedented situation and PPE was required, in vast quantities, from wherever it could be procured, without delay. The luxury of following normal tender procedures wasn’t there. I will await the outcome of the NCI investigation. Corruption is the offering of an undue reward to a person in public office in order to influence their behaviour in office and incline them to act contrary to the known rules of honesty and integrity (Russell on Crime). A word which, like fraud, tends to be bandied about.

It wasn't there, because despite repeated warnings of an impending pandemic, and warnings that the UK was not in any way, shape or form prepared, and with practically no stocks at all...

Total incompetence added to fraud with mates.

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Germanshepherdsmum

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Michelle Mome….

As to whom neither you nor I have any evidence - the matter is under investigation.

That's a really interesting piece Maisie. Thank you.

As we are all well aware, the extremes of the Conservative voters would rather people died than let us, as a country care for them and that means they attack those least able to defend themselves ...

... or am I now going down the same route as ...

Labour always overspends - really, after zero investment in the country for 15 years

That Labour leaders aren't strong within their party - reaĺly, when the neo-capitalists have had the many and often leaders by the short and curlies for 15 years

And that "Uk politics has made a wholesale shift to the left in the last 15 years" (I dare not answer that).

Unsurprisingly, I don't think I am listening and believing something similar the lies that we hear from those who believe the Tory owned media.

Germanshepherdsmum

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Nobody's is bashing the UK - very nazi-style statement. They are telling the truth about Tory voters, their politicians and the scroungers around them.

Do you know, or have personal knowledge of, any Conservative voter who would rather people die than let the country care for them? I know no such person, and as you well know I mix in Conservative circles. I await clarification.

Your faith in this Tory administration is admonishing GSM, especially for one who always tells us how up to date she is with every aspect of law......contracts, criminal, property, commercial. I am astonished that you have time for anything else! Your defence of the PPE scandal is unfathomable to me. I was previously involved in bid evaluation of multi million pound contracts (as part of a team) and I can assure you that no company which had been formed a week prior to the bid, that had no previous relevant experience and failed the most basic financial checks by having only around £100 in the bank would have been shown the door.

I doubt that your experience covered the pandemic emergency, when there was no time for normal tender procedures. I have defended nothing, if you read my posts. I have said that I await the outcome of investigations and I have given a legal definition of corruption and a pointer towards anti-fraud legislation. And I have never claimed to be ‘up to date with every aspect of the law’ - that statement alone shows your very broad brush and inaccurate view.

Germanshepherdsmum

Do you know, or have personal knowledge of, any Conservative voter who would rather people die than let the country care for them? I know no such person, and as you well know I mix in Conservative circles. I await clarification.

Boris Johnson.
www.opendemocracy.net/en/boris-johnson-covid-natures-way-dealing-with-old-people-patrick-vallance-inquiry/

Germanshepherdsmum

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Honestly? Really?

Germanshepherdsmum

Well I know you love to bash the UK, but what evidence do you have of ‘fraud with mates’?

Unlawful VIP lane, GSM? Which civil servants were told to prioritise...

I'm pretty partial to bashing the UK, too, when it is in the wrong.

Unlawful? We shall see

Germanshepherdsmum

I doubt that your experience covered the pandemic emergency, when there was no time for normal tender procedures. I have defended nothing, if you read my posts. I have said that I await the outcome of investigations and I have given a legal definition of corruption and a pointer towards anti-fraud legislation. And I have never claimed to be ‘up to date with every aspect of the law’ - that statement alone shows your very broad brush and inaccurate view.

So, if you’re not up to date with every aspect of the law, how come you’re so quick to condemn Keir for trying to improve upon it as it now stands?

Germanshepherdsmum

Do you know, or have personal knowledge of, any Conservative voter who would rather people die than let the country care for them? I know no such person, and as you well know I mix in Conservative circles. I await clarification.

I don't know any that would admit to it, no. Yet still they vote for a party founded in moral bankruptcy. A party that blocked every effort to introduce factory reforms, welfare for the poor, the formation of the NHS and the State Pension. A party that forced miners to buy food at inflated prices from company stores whilst the "captains" of industry used the blood soaked coal to amass fortunes.

A party that would rather see tons of sewage poured into our waterways and seas solely to line the pockets of share holders.

Still, I'm sure you haven't refused any of the advantages of living in a civilised society so hard won by the Liberal party and subsequently the Labour party. Your pension, the NHS, working in an environment that isn't likely to kill you? The list goes on.

No? I thought not.

I doubt you have refused any of these advantages either.

Casdon

FullFact.
fullfact.org/health/covid-ppe-fraud-rishi-sunak/

Thanks for that, Casdon.

Mush as I distrusted the government's 'actions' at the time (I do not believe they were adequately prepared) - and still distrust their explanations and reasoning - facts are so very important, as much in relation to this government as any other.

This stood out...

The £14.9 billion figure may refer to an estimate for the total loss in value of DHSC stock. This is not a measure of fraud, and includes many things besides PPE.

As FF states, False or misleading claims online have the potential to harm confidence in democratic processes and institutions. Online claims can spread fast and far, and are difficult to contain and correct.

So true. And misleading claims does the cause of justice no good whatsoever.

How many people bother to investigate - as opposed to just parroting what they pick up on social media because it suits their argument?

Mush ???

... ahem, "Much"

Germanshepherdsmum

I doubt you have refused any of these advantages either.

What a meaningless comment.

Why should I refuse the great advances in health care and social reform that my family has, for generations, supported?

Is it not wrong to accept them when your party has historically blocked them at every opportunity? Surely you and your Tory circle of friends should eschew them and set a principled example.

Germanshepherdsmum

Unlawful? We shall see

It went to judicial review, GSM. The VIP lane was found to be unlawful.