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Would the Tories dare to hoist yet another prime minister onto the country?

(64 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 16-Jan-24 19:09:28

The call for sacking Sunak appears to be getting louder.

M0nica Sat 20-Jan-24 15:07:52

ronib that is what we have a foreign secretary for. No, the French system does not work particulalry well.

The president appoints the prime Minister, although his appointment has to be approved by their parliament, the prime Minister is even less accountable than in the British system because while their parliament has to approve the pm, they are limited in approving someone nominated by the president.

MaizieD Sat 20-Jan-24 13:29:42

I understand that the President has overall power and deals with foreign policy and the Prime Minister handles home affairs.
Tat is why the 'great offices of state' are held to be the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary (and the Chancellor). The Prime Minister is leader but is supposed to be the 'First among Equals', not the sole holder of power in the Executive.

As for PMs merely being a 'mouth piece' of their party, MOnica, I don't think Thatcher would have taken too kindly to that idea grin

ronib Sat 20-Jan-24 12:19:39

I sometimes think the Uk would be better off with a President and a Prime Minister - does it work well in France? I understand that the President has overall power and deals with foreign policy and the Prime Minister handles home affairs.

I think any British pm must be very stretched …..

M0nica Sat 20-Jan-24 12:05:02

We can have a new primem minister every day, regardless of which party is in power

The British constitution is not presidential. We elect individual MPs, who group together to form a government and select one of the group to lead it. Nothing to do with the elctorate, and no reason why it should be. Leaders, whether Prime Ministers or Leaders of the Opposition etc have very little real power, they are just a mouthpiece for the party grouping behind them.

Katie59 Fri 19-Jan-24 19:59:34

I don’t believe there will be a change before the GE mostly because there isn’t an obvious candidate, Braverman makes Thatcher look like a moderate and wants the job but would be Starmers dream, a Labour landslide. Cameron has been mentioned, he’s obviously happy as a safe pair of hands as FS surely not PM again

ronib Thu 18-Jan-24 17:16:33

Yes we would do so much better without anyone holding the post of prime minister?

Whitewavemark2 Thu 18-Jan-24 17:05:28

Grantanow

Even the Mogg on Newsnight said it would not be sensible to have another PM.

But he lies, so you can’t really rely on his statement.

Grantanow Thu 18-Jan-24 17:03:17

Even the Mogg on Newsnight said it would not be sensible to have another PM.

Dinahmo Wed 17-Jan-24 12:45:30

Urmstongran

Plus turkeys (MPs) are not going to vote for Christmas. The Tory MPs know their days in Westminster are numbered. They are likely to cling on for as long as possible. They enjoy all the trappings. Why give it up sooner when it might as well be after the summer? “Make hay while the sun shines” comes to mind. 2nd home allowance, subsidised bar and restaurant, staffing allowances for their family members.

Those long summer holidays - paid of course.

Urmstongran Wed 17-Jan-24 11:53:07

Plus turkeys (MPs) are not going to vote for Christmas. The Tory MPs know their days in Westminster are numbered. They are likely to cling on for as long as possible. They enjoy all the trappings. Why give it up sooner when it might as well be after the summer? “Make hay while the sun shines” comes to mind. 2nd home allowance, subsidised bar and restaurant, staffing allowances for their family members.

Casdon Wed 17-Jan-24 11:42:56

ronib

I have not heard any Conservatives call for Sunak to resign. I think it’s much more subtle. It could be just that whoever is running the party has lost the plot. It is a bit unfortunate that Sunak reminds me of a puppet in appearance but that is in part due to the way he is filmed, I guess?

They have though.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=EOFnxkNTH7U
This was on GB News. Braverman very nearly said it when she resigned too. The tensions are on the surface, so today will be interesting. I don’t think he will resign, the more moderate MPs are the majority and they know he’s the best chance they have at the moment.

DaisyAnneReturns Wed 17-Jan-24 11:36:02

They wouldn't though, would they ronib? Wouldn't they put in letters?

Grantanow Wed 17-Jan-24 11:29:57

Nothing is unthinkable to a Tory government with it's back against the wall.

ronib Wed 17-Jan-24 10:49:21

I have not heard any Conservatives call for Sunak to resign. I think it’s much more subtle. It could be just that whoever is running the party has lost the plot. It is a bit unfortunate that Sunak reminds me of a puppet in appearance but that is in part due to the way he is filmed, I guess?

MaizieD Wed 17-Jan-24 09:19:16

RosiesMaw

MaizieD

Whitewavemark2

RosiesMaw

Hoist?

FOIST

Just seen this and sorry not to reply before.

No - I did mean hoist - raise up yet another Tory idiot to be PM.

You could add foist if you like - as no one would want another idiot.

You are very forgiving, Wwmk2😆

I thought that posting solely to correct a perceived lexical error was very rude and against the supposed 'spirit' of the forum.

You’d know about that

Would you like to point me to where I have ever corrected a poster's spelling, grammar or choice of word?

I really couldn't be bothered to join a thread just to nitpick at another poster's use of English.

RosiesMaw Wed 17-Jan-24 09:10:33

MaizieD

Whitewavemark2

RosiesMaw

Hoist?

FOIST

Just seen this and sorry not to reply before.

No - I did mean hoist - raise up yet another Tory idiot to be PM.

You could add foist if you like - as no one would want another idiot.

You are very forgiving, Wwmk2😆

I thought that posting solely to correct a perceived lexical error was very rude and against the supposed 'spirit' of the forum.

You’d know about that

MaizieD Wed 17-Jan-24 09:09:11

Whitewavemark2

RosiesMaw

Hoist?

FOIST

Just seen this and sorry not to reply before.

No - I did mean hoist - raise up yet another Tory idiot to be PM.

You could add foist if you like - as no one would want another idiot.

You are very forgiving, Wwmk2😆

I thought that posting solely to correct a perceived lexical error was very rude and against the supposed 'spirit' of the forum.

RosiesMaw Wed 17-Jan-24 09:07:03

Fair comment - both seem appropriate

Whitewavemark2 Wed 17-Jan-24 08:56:49

RosiesMaw

Hoist?

FOIST

Just seen this and sorry not to reply before.

No - I did mean hoist - raise up yet another Tory idiot to be PM.

You could add foist if you like - as no one would want another idiot.

DaisyAnneReturns Wed 17-Jan-24 08:48:53

I've just been reading an article about Trump. Based on statistics, case study research and polling. They found he does not appeal to American voters on economic grounds but on core cultural values.

One of which is an appeal to popular sovereignty over and above liberal democracy. So the argument is that moral virtue and power should be with the ordinary people and not the elites.

The second dimension is anti-establishment, and this is opposed not just to political and economic elites but also to other perceived power-holders, like intellectuals or journalists or other groups at the top of society.

And then thirdly, even though it's about popular sovereignty in practice, there aren't that many mechanisms. Mechanisms like public opinion polls or other forms of democratic referendum are typically weak. So in practice, what happens is the power is seen to reside in the individual leader, the charismatic leader who represents the voice of the ordinary people.

So you can think of populism as a way to critique liberal democracy, which opens the door for a variety of leaders who have different ideologies, whether we're talking Hugo Chavez in Venezuela or Donald Trump in America.

The only thing populist leaders seem to have in common is authoritarianism. Left or right this is what their followers are looking for.

So populism is rather an empty shell when it comes to what its positives are, but it is always clear what it is against: established power.

Is that what this country would welcome Curtaintwitcher?. Whether it is the stamp of the Jackboot or the insidious re-education of those in Mao suits, we have fought these things to grasp democracy. Are you really saying you share the core cultural values of those who want authoritarianism rather than democracy?

www.vox.com/conversations/2017/3/27/15037232/trump-populist-appeal-culture-economy

Casdon Wed 17-Jan-24 08:22:54

Curtaintwitcher

It's interesting that David Cameron hasn't wasted any time making his views heard. He is much more confident that Sunak. I don't like the man, but he is more definite in his opinions, whereas Sunak is rather sycophantic.

It is true that the Conservatives still have a chance of winning the election is they could just get their act together. They need a strong, patriotic leader who will put Britain first.
Someone like Trump!

It’s not true. Boris Johnson was the UK Trump equivalent, and there isn’t somebody else like him waiting in the wings here. Even if there was, and if they could unite the warring factions, the Tories have now burnt too many bridges with the electorate, and wouldn’t be elected again next time.

RosiesMaw Wed 17-Jan-24 07:52:54

Someone like Trump

God help us.
Next we will have somebody reminding us how Mussolini got all the trains to run on time.

Curtaintwitcher Wed 17-Jan-24 07:21:18

It's interesting that David Cameron hasn't wasted any time making his views heard. He is much more confident that Sunak. I don't like the man, but he is more definite in his opinions, whereas Sunak is rather sycophantic.

It is true that the Conservatives still have a chance of winning the election is they could just get their act together. They need a strong, patriotic leader who will put Britain first.
Someone like Trump!

vegansrock Wed 17-Jan-24 03:32:24

So instead of concentrating on things that actually matter to people like energy costs, mortgage interest rates, the NHS, education, councils bankrupt, sewage in our waters etc the Tories are falling out with themselves because their batshit Rwanda policy isn’t batshit enough. The sooner they go the better.

mae13 Wed 17-Jan-24 01:30:44

Lord! I've heard Suella Braverman's name cropping up hither and thither, so character bankrupt are the Conservative party. But would she be ambitiously desperate enough to step in?