Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

Glorianny

Joseann

And if school finishes at 3.15 pm, they still have nearly 40 minutes to get home (London) on even the shortest day of term in December?

The Michaela school finishes at 5pm.
Which may be another reason parents choose it. If you are working no childcare costs.

Where does it say it finishes at 5pm, I see it finishing at 3.15 except on Friday when it's 2.15? Perhaps you could post a link to back up this claim? The school provides 35hours 40minutes in a typical week 3+ hours more than the average school. No wonder they, like our local secondary schools have an early finish on Fridays. It may just be fortunate for the probably very small number of Jewish pupils.

You really are determined to criticise Michaela and to assume it's anti-muslim in its practices. KB's own grandmother was Muslim so I think that's unlikely. I note not one squeak out of you about the Hindu children or the Jehovah Witness children and the compromises they have to make or any Christian compromises. It's crystal clear that you move the goalposts constantly every time your argument is shown to be faulty. And that you studiously avoid as many questions that poke holes in your arguments as possible. I thought you wanted a prayer room for all religions and for meditation for children of no faith. Ever since that initial argument you keep saying they only need room for 30 Muslim pupils. Which is it? Exclusively for 30 Muslim children, or a room available to any number of children that want it?

As for the lunchtime arrangements all you can do is criticise the serving of fish on Friday? No commendation of the 'family' setting with children learning to socialise and serve each other. You said yourself it was no longer a requirement for RC children. Do you think it's possible that it's because most religions permit the eating of fish so Muslims, Hindus, Christians (of any denomination) can all share the meal. Vegans or vegetarians wouldn't but they cater for allergies and other dietary restrictions so that wouldn't be a problem.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny

Dickens

The information about mealtimes is very detailed. Including the rather odd (in my opinion) information that although the food is vegetarian the school serves "traditional fish on a Friday".
A requirement that I thought even RCs had dropped.

A Jewish family I worked for always ate fish on Friday... Shabbat (sabbath) begins on a Friday. I know, because they invited me to eat with them... but it's usually eaten in the evening.

Shabbat begins at sunset on a Friday, some Jewish children need to leave school early in the winter

Maybe that's why the school closes by 2.15 every Friday? Did you miss that when you read the school documents?

Yes I missed that.
So they actually accommodate Jewish students.
Lets see fish on a Friday for RCs, early finish on a Friday for Jewish students. Now which major religion isn't being accommodated??

Friday is an important day for Muslims too.

One of my Muslim colleagues always had Fridays off.

Where does it say it finishes at 5pm, I see it finishing at 3.15 except on Friday when it's 2.15? Perhaps you could post a link to back up this claim?
I'm glad it's not just me reading it as 3 15 pm, except on Fridays. KB is actually quoted as saying, it's a good job school doesn't finish at 5pm or her teachers will still be there at 7.30 pm. There are after-school detentions.

Joseann

^Where does it say it finishes at 5pm, I see it finishing at 3.15 except on Friday when it's 2.15? Perhaps you could post a link to back up this claim?^
I'm glad it's not just me reading it as 3 15 pm, except on Fridays. KB is actually quoted as saying, it's a good job school doesn't finish at 5pm or her teachers will still be there at 7.30 pm. There are after-school detentions.

No doubt Glorianny will post the link to the part of the website that gives the school day as from 7.55am until 5pm which we both missed. She must have seen it somewhere during her extensive perusal of the school website.

Glad to read Glorianny has gone back to real sources rather than relying on second-hand evidence. What does the length of the school day have to do with praying?

I don't see what Birbalsingh's grandmother's religion has to do with anything.

One of my grandmothers was a devout Christian. I'm an atheist.

Actually Rosie51, I think it is you who has introduced a number of irrelevancies.

The serving of fish on Fridays undermines the argument that the school is secular. If it were, why make a token gesture to the Christian custom of eating fish on Fridays?

growstuff

The serving of fish on Fridays undermines the argument that the school is secular. If it were, why make a token gesture to the Christian custom of eating fish on Fridays?

It's more of a British tradition now, not a religious requirement, to eat fish on Fridays.

growstuff

Actually Rosie51, I think it is you who has introduced a number of irrelevancies.

growstuff Glad to read Glorianny has gone back to real sources rather than relying on second-hand evidence. What does the length of the school day have to do with praying
Perhaps before enjoying your personal attack on me you'd care to peruse the school website and link to where the school day ends at 5pm? All I can see is a 3.15 finish Monday to Thursday and a 2.15 finish on a Friday. Obviously you KNOW better. I do hope you won't quietly disappear into the ether but will follow up with absolute proof. I'd hate to think you were jumping on bandwagons........
What is irrelevant about Hindus having to accept their child's plate may have been touched by an egg which contravenes their beliefs? What is irrelevant about a Jehovah's Witness having to study a text that includes magic which is contrary to their belief? I think it's very bigoted of you to be so dismissive of these other faith beliefs.

What I don't understand is why some of those who profess to be atheists (not all) are so dismissive of all faiths except Islam, which is defended so robustly by those same posters?

It's an anomaly.

Callistemon21

What I don't understand is why some of those who profess to be atheists (not all) are so dismissive of all faiths except Islam, which is defended so robustly by those same posters?

It's an anomaly.

To quote Toyah Wilcox "It's a Mystery". They couldn't give a monkey's about any other religion, and most would disagree vehemently (as would most sane people) with Islam's attitude to gay people, but there we go...

growstuff

The serving of fish on Fridays undermines the argument that the school is secular. If it were, why make a token gesture to the Christian custom of eating fish on Fridays?

growstuff

The serving of fish on Fridays undermines the argument that the school is secular. If it were, why make a token gesture to the Christian custom of eating fish on Fridays?

Eating fish on a Friday is now just a British custom, in the same way we often go for a curry on a Friday night. Jewish people eat fish on Friday, Muslims eat fish (some types) on any day of the week.

If the menus are planned in advance and you have to choose a day - why on earth should it not be on a Friday?

Dickens Sorry, but I don't eat fish on Fridays and I don't know anybody who does. It's a hangover for some from Christian traditions. Why eat fish at all if the school is vegetarian? I hope there's a vegan option.

Birbalsingh's arguments are flawed.

Callistemon21

What I don't understand is why some of those who profess to be atheists (not all) are so dismissive of all faiths except Islam, which is defended so robustly by those same posters?

It's an anomaly.

I'm not dismissive of other faiths. I have never in my life felt a need or desire to pray or believed there is any kind of god.

Nevertheless, there have been times when I have said grace at formal meals and I don't know how many Christian-based assemblies I sat through as a pupil and teacher. My children were forced to go to C of E primary schools because there was no choice. I respect other people's faith (all faiths) and don't argue against them.

I actually think Birbalsingh has made this a "wedge" issue because she knows she'll be supported by the anti-woke brigade. Personally, I think all state schools should be 100% secular, which means abandoning the legal requirement for a daily act of collective worship of broadly Christian nature and forcing pupils to sing "God save the king* at the beginning of the school day (as Michaela does).

I really couldn't care less whether some pupils pray during their lunch breaks (or spend five minutes standing on one leg for all I care). If (as alleged) some pupils and staff have been bullied, it should have been dealt with under the school's anti-bullying policies or by the police. As the self-identified "strictest headteacher", I'm sure Birbalsingh could have coped with bullying - that's what strict headteachers do well. I find it difficult to believe that pupils would behave so badly while not directly supervised when praying, if the school's discipline policies are so effective. In any case, how on earth has the prayer ban stopped the threats? It doesn't add up.

The whole thing smacks of self-publicity and hypocrisy.

I'd also like to know why Birbalsingh is giving interviews to the media during an ongoing court case.

growstuff

Dickens Sorry, but I don't eat fish on Fridays and I don't know anybody who does. It's a hangover for some from Christian traditions. Why eat fish at all if the school is vegetarian? I hope there's a vegan option.

Birbalsingh's arguments are flawed.

You really don't know anyone who eats fish on a Friday? Never heard of this tradition?

OK.

I don't know why they have fish on the menu. It could be a weekly 'concession' to those who are not vegetarians.

It's not a school for vegetarians - the school is trying to make the food acceptable to all. And as nearly half of the pupils are Muslim (I'm sure the school knows which type of fish they are allowed to eat) - I'm not sure why you are condemning the menu.

At my GCs' school, the menu refers to it as "Fishy Friday"!
One of my best friends runs a school catering company, and fish is always proposed on the menu for Fridays.
Just search the weekly menus for schools to see.

I think the topic of food is actually very relevant and provides the biggest picture here. We all eat, we don't all pray.

Joseann

I think the topic of food is actually very relevant and provides the biggest picture here. We all eat, we don't all pray.

Please could you explain because I still don't see why a vegetarian school has fish on Fridays.

In any case, I doubt the judge will be interested in the menus.

Joseann

At my GCs' school, the menu refers to it as "Fishy Friday"!
One of my best friends runs a school catering company, and fish is always proposed on the menu for Fridays.
Just search the weekly menus for schools to see.

We have had GC at four different primary schools, all have had and still do have Fishy Friday

Even the grab bags (prepared sandwich, fruit & snack) have tuna on a Friday.

growstuff

In any case, I doubt the judge will be interested in the menus.

Ooo I don't know!
I bet he's rather looking forward to his fish and chips in The George in The Strand tomorrow.
A sort of reward for his hard work.

Glad to read Glorianny has gone back to real sources rather than relying on second-hand evidence. What does the length of the school day have to do with praying?

What sources ? What second hand evidence?

I heard it from the horse’s mouth when I listened to KB’s interview. Far more accurate than any link.

Apart from Glorianny no one else has found any evidence of the school closing at 5pm. The school near me closes at 2.30 on Fridays.

What are these real sources you mention? Why is everyone else’s information second hand?

growstuff My children were forced to go to C of E primary schools because there was no choice. I didn't realise there were any areas of the UK where children could be forced to go to a faith school. What happened if someone of the Jewish or Muslim faith didn't want their child to attend, they surely couldn't be left without education? Near me is a C of E primary that is vastly over subscribed by children of all faiths because it has excellent results and facilities.