Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

We are unfortunately attending various hospitals lately.

We had to kill around 9 hours in one recently and wandered along to the hospital chapel. It had been taken over as a Muslim prayer room with piles and piles of shoes outside the doors and no room to get in as it was totally packed with men on their prayer mats.

Another hospital chapel was almost the same. Piles of prayer mats and not much indication that anybody other than Muslims were welcome.

Another Zombie Thread. I interesting to see some of the 'old' GN names.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

The Muslim student has lost the High Court challenge on the ban.

""Freedom to pray is a human right"". (Mollygo) So is freedom from ritual praying in public.

"I believe in ethics, and if everybody believed in ethics we'd have no problems at all. That's the only way out; forget the religious side."

Nicholas Winton 2015

winterwhite

Wholly agree with OP.

The point was raised apparently that only the muslim religion requires its followers to pray in a certain structured way e.g requiring a special mat, whereas followers of other religions can just find a quiet corner and close their eyes.

And if you don’t have a special mat you take your blazer off and kneel on that in the playground which is what this girl did.

She also got into an altercation with another girl a few months ago in which she threatened to kill her.

No, it isn't. Freedom to pray is a human right - the rest aren't.

Is anyone stopping them praying, in private without a special room?
The problem seems to be the demands rather than the prayers.

growstuff

eazybee

Agitating for prayer times/ rooms is simply a continuation of demanding changes in uniform, food, timetables, separation of the sexes, curriculum content, in fact anything to undermine the authority of the school against that of the self-appointed 'elders of the community.'

No, it isn't. Freedom to pray is a human right - the rest aren't.

Is it freedom of religion or freedom to pray that's a human right? Tell those who were quietly praying outside the abortion clinic who now have an exclusion zone enforced by law. Hasn't their 'human right' to pray (wherever they wish) been denied?

As I understand it pupils praying in the playground started only about 3 weeks or so before the ban came in. This was a very new and escalating situation. Until then there had no need to have any restriction on praying. If anyone knows more details it would be useful. Had playground prayer in fact been the norm for the previous 8 years?

They don't want changes to be made. Praying wasn't banned at Michaela until the incident during Ramadan last year. When parents of these pupils chose the school, there was no ban.
???

Joseann

By the way, music is a bit of a passion of mine. If children study music at Key Stage 3 at Michaela, all kinds of religious music is studied right back to Renaissance times. And Jerusalem is in the Curriculum as is Mozart, Bach and Beethoven Do Muslim children have to go to a separate room while these compositions are being analysed? Of course not. It's Music, not Religious Studies. The singing of Religious songs can now be applied to all kind of situations with no bearing on their origin.
And so, Glorianny, the singing of the national anthem in Regent's Park Mosque is not irrelevant.

They don't study music for the whole of Key Stage 3 at Michaela. Music is offered during the first two years. There is no music in Year 9 or Key Stage 4. That's not related to Muslims, but the narrow curriculum I've written about before.

Mollygo

Glorianny

I was thinking about all the people saying these children should go to an Islamic school. Aren't these the very children we want in state schools? Shouldn't they be being exposed to ordinary secular life and be mixing with other sorts of children. If the cost of keeping them in a school is allowing them 10 mins prayer a day isn't that worth it, so that they grow up familiar with other people and their cultures

🤣🤣🤣
For the most part I’d agree. Where I live there are more Muslim children in state schools and in the CofE schools with no issues.
But these children don’t want to be in state schools without having changes made to suit them.
Taking that to its natural conclusion, if one change is achieved through bullying and coercion, what other demands might be forthcoming.
Do you want them growing up learning that bullying gets them what they want to suit their culture?

They don't want changes to be made. Praying wasn't banned at Michaela until the incident during Ramadan last year. When parents of these pupils chose the school, there was no ban.

eazybee

Agitating for prayer times/ rooms is simply a continuation of demanding changes in uniform, food, timetables, separation of the sexes, curriculum content, in fact anything to undermine the authority of the school against that of the self-appointed 'elders of the community.'

No, it isn't. Freedom to pray is a human right - the rest aren't.

Joseann

^if one change is achieved through bullying and coercion, what other demands might be forthcoming^.
That is the issue for me too.

Permitting prayer is enshrined in the Human Rights Act - that's not bullying or coercion. It's recognising a right which has exited all the time.

Me too Joseann. There's a much bigger picture to consider here and a failure to so would be a big mistake.

Joseann

Glorianny

I was thinking about all the people saying these children should go to an Islamic school. Aren't these the very children we want in state schools? Shouldn't they be being exposed to ordinary secular life and be mixing with other sorts of children. If the cost of keeping them in a school is allowing them 10 mins prayer a day isn't that worth it, so that they grow up familiar with other people and their cultures

And that's sort of interesting too, because I do kind of see where Glorianny is coming from, but equally I don't think it is of any importance.
Here in Devon, 96% of people are white, 1.5% of people are Asian. I believe around 50% of us are Christians, I don't think Muslims are even counted as it's less than 1%.
However, if a Muslim child were to join a school here, no one would even register their religion. Its a child, a new pupil, just that. If they were to be allowed 10 minutes prayer as and when, then that would certainly set them apart from the others.

But if the other children had been educated to be tolerant (British values), would it matter if the child were seen as different for a few minutes.

When I was at secondary school, there were about half a dozen Jewish girls, who didn't attend daily assembly, but came in at the end for "notices". We all knew they were a bit different, but nobody cared one jot.

Agitating for prayer times/ rooms is simply a continuation of demanding changes in uniform, food, timetables, separation of the sexes, curriculum content, in fact anything to undermine the authority of the school against that of the self-appointed 'elders of the community.'

if one change is achieved through bullying and coercion, what other demands might be forthcoming.
That is the issue for me too.

Glorianny

I was thinking about all the people saying these children should go to an Islamic school. Aren't these the very children we want in state schools? Shouldn't they be being exposed to ordinary secular life and be mixing with other sorts of children. If the cost of keeping them in a school is allowing them 10 mins prayer a day isn't that worth it, so that they grow up familiar with other people and their cultures

And that's sort of interesting too, because I do kind of see where Glorianny is coming from, but equally I don't think it is of any importance.
Here in Devon, 96% of people are white, 1.5% of people are Asian. I believe around 50% of us are Christians, I don't think Muslims are even counted as it's less than 1%.
However, if a Muslim child were to join a school here, no one would even register their religion. Its a child, a new pupil, just that. If they were to be allowed 10 minutes prayer as and when, then that would certainly set them apart from the others.

For some very devout Muslims all music is forbidden. Cat Stevens (Morning Has Broken) gave up music completely when he converted to Islam and became Yusuf. However he started playing again a few years ago when he reached a decision that not all music was banned.

Well, that does sort of count as interesting, to me anyway, (and seeing as we're going off piste a bit). Cat Stevens was Greek Orthodox originally, wasn't he? (I loved his "Father and Son" song.)
There was a similar issue with Zayn Malik (One Direction) a few years back. He was raised a Muslim and attended a Mosque for prayers, though some of the songs probably went way beyond what was acceptable as a Muslim! In the end he gave up being a Muslim I think because he no longer believed in it and did not endorse Islam's religious practices such as daily prayer and eating halal meat.The backlash he got was awful, yet no one battered an eyelid at his previous incompatible lifestyle.
My view is that Music nowadays, especially singing, has to transcend and rise above (figuratively), it gets far too complicated.

Glorianny

I was thinking about all the people saying these children should go to an Islamic school. Aren't these the very children we want in state schools? Shouldn't they be being exposed to ordinary secular life and be mixing with other sorts of children. If the cost of keeping them in a school is allowing them 10 mins prayer a day isn't that worth it, so that they grow up familiar with other people and their cultures

🤣🤣🤣
For the most part I’d agree. Where I live there are more Muslim children in state schools and in the CofE schools with no issues.
But these children don’t want to be in state schools without having changes made to suit them.
Taking that to its natural conclusion, if one change is achieved through bullying and coercion, what other demands might be forthcoming.
Do you want them growing up learning that bullying gets them what they want to suit their culture?

I was thinking about all the people saying these children should go to an Islamic school. Aren't these the very children we want in state schools? Shouldn't they be being exposed to ordinary secular life and be mixing with other sorts of children. If the cost of keeping them in a school is allowing them 10 mins prayer a day isn't that worth it, so that they grow up familiar with other people and their cultures

Joseann

^Muslim pupils were bullying others for not wearing a hijab and being part of the choir.^
Eh? This is getting more and more weird. Choir? We've just had a few pages droning on about singing the wrong type of music associated with a church or religion, and now we have a full scale organised choir? And who, pray, was the choir performing to? The public who reported them? Was it a gospel choir? I thought Muslims weren't allowed to song religious songs?
I need a strong coffee.

For some very devout Muslims all music is forbidden. Cat Stevens (Morning Has Broken) gave up music completely when he converted to Islam and became Yusuf. However he started playing again a few years ago when he reached a decision that not all music was banned.
A quiet word with the girls and their parents could have resolved any issues about threats.

So, why was Glorianny not told on here "it's not about singing" when she was the one bringing up Jerusalem all the time?
Whereas Rosie copped the lot?

Must dash now.

IS relevant