Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

Actually I don’t need an answer as you’ve already made it quite clear.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.

How long is the time available at lunch after they've eaten? Allowing for entering and leaving the room that's 20 minutes required for the Muslim children alone. Why can't other children of different faiths use the room at the same time? If there won't be time during the lunch break for all interested parties are you going to have a 'pecking order' of importance?

IMHO, the headmistress meant well but she made a mistake of letting the Muslim students pray outside in the open playground.

They were seen by members of public who then sent death threats, bomb threats and racial abuses to the teachers in that school which lead to the prayer ban in the first place.

I grew up in a multi faith country where Muslims live alongside other faiths and have never seen Muslims praying outside in the open for that very reason, as to not offend people of other faiths.

There have been many instances in the UK of Muslims in large numbers praying outside in public spaces.

Mollygo

^The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.^
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

That way lies chaos.

Pupils dipping in and out of lessons because they need to pray in the middle of a Maths or History lesson.

Surely most of us know what teenagers are like?

Anyone know Brent where the Michaela School is? I do, because it is next door but one to my old home borough. The very diverse population is made up of 7 main religions practised by its residents. So if each group of children is individually allowed 10 - 15 minutes prayer time, plus setting up time per day, (because it must be seen to be equal), that makes 140 minutes which is over 2 hours in the school day!

In Brent there 20 secondary schools, they include denominational schools (Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu), academies, community, special and independent schools

There is a wide choice of state secondary schools in Brent, including religious schools.

When we lived in London we had to apply for a secondary school place for our children in their last year at primary school and could choose from all schools in the Borough, plus one religious school in a neighbouring Borough.
We were advised not to put down a second choice if we really wanted our child to go to one particular school.

www.brent.gov.uk/education-schools-and-learning/school-admissions/apply-for-a-secondary-school-place#planandprepare

It seems strange to me that parents would choose a school for their child which does not subscribe to their beliefs.

Joseann

Anyone know Brent where the Michaela School is? I do, because it is next door but one to my old home borough. The very diverse population is made up of 7 main religions practised by its residents. So if each group of children is individually allowed 10 - 15 minutes prayer time, plus setting up time per day, (because it must be seen to be equal), that makes 140 minutes which is over 2 hours in the school day!

The school's pupils are apparently 50% Muslim. As far as I know, only Islam has requirements for believers to pray at certain times of day. It's only become a problem because people have reacted to the initial ban. Practically, it seems it's never been a problem.

I wonder if Ms Birbalsingh has ever had a meeting with faith leaders in the area to explain her position and the practical problems and listened to what they have to say. My suspicion is that she is so convinced that her views are the only correct ones that she doesn't listen to others.

Birbalsingh has some dogmatic views about children, including the idea that they are born with original sin. She sees it as her duty to overcome that, thereby setting herself up as some kind of god.

The vast majority of the pupils at Michaela are from an ethnic minority background. I can understand why they would favour Michaela. Firstly, Brent has many ethnic minorities, so they are the natural catchment. Secondly, ethnic minority parents tend to support a "traditional" education with none of the trappings of "western" liberalism and the Enlightenment. Thirdly, some of the parents haven't had opportunities for education, but are aspirational for their own children and want the best for them. They see the PR about Michael's educational achievements without necessarily understanding what's behind the hype.

Callistemon21

Mollygo

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

That way lies chaos.

Pupils dipping in and out of lessons because they need to pray in the middle of a Maths or History lesson.

Surely most of us know what teenagers are like?

There has been no suggestion that pupils would dip in and out of lessons. This kicked off because pupils wanted to pray during the lunch break.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.

How long is the time available at lunch after they've eaten? Allowing for entering and leaving the room that's 20 minutes required for the Muslim children alone. Why can't other children of different faiths use the room at the same time? If there won't be time during the lunch break for all interested parties are you going to have a 'pecking order' of importance?

The court case isn't about the provision of a faith room.

growstuff

Callistemon21

Mollygo

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

That way lies chaos.

Pupils dipping in and out of lessons because they need to pray in the middle of a Maths or History lesson.

Surely most of us know what teenagers are like?

There has been no suggestion that pupils would dip in and out of lessons. This kicked off because pupils wanted to pray during the lunch break.

If they pray at the required times then some would not coincide with the lunch break.

How long is the lunch break, I wonder? At my DGC's school it's only half an hour.

growstuff

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

Anniebach

One room at lunch time shared by all faiths?

I've asked if the 30 Muslim pupils will be happy to pray alongside Christians, Hindus, Jews and those who wish for quiet meditation. Answer comes there none. The assumption that it will only be 30 Muslim pupils who would use a prayer room is a very biased one.

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.

How long is the time available at lunch after they've eaten? Allowing for entering and leaving the room that's 20 minutes required for the Muslim children alone. Why can't other children of different faiths use the room at the same time? If there won't be time during the lunch break for all interested parties are you going to have a 'pecking order' of importance?

The court case isn't about the provision of a faith room.

The court case isn't about the provision of a faith room.
I know that, you know that, presumably Glorianny knows that. How about you respond to one of Glorianny's posts instead of 'stalking' me with your dismissive replies. Are you unaware that sometimes threads deviate around a theme?
Would you be happy that no children other than Muslim children would have access to the prayer room during school hours?

Schools have a legal requirement to hold a daily act of worship that is “wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character”, but many have opted out.

Government guidance states “schools will not be acting unlawfully if they do not provide an equivalent act of worship for other faiths”.

Schools Week
Monday, 29 Jan 2024

1 I'm not "stalking" you Rosie51.

2 No, I wouldn't be happy if prayer rooms were only provided for Muslim pupils and others didn't have access. However, the current court case isn't about the provision of prayer rooms. It's about pupils' being able to pray during school breaks in a place to which all pupils have access.

Callistemon21

^Schools have a legal requirement to hold a daily act of worship that is “wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character”, but many have opted out.^

Government guidance states “schools will not be acting unlawfully if they do not provide an equivalent act of worship for other faiths”.

Schools Week
Monday, 29 Jan 2024

The court case isn't about daily acts of worship either. It's about small groups of pupils' praying during lunch breaks.

As I've previously stated, I have never in my life felt any need to pray, but I do appreciate that many do have that need. The original incident occurred during Ramadan, when there is a special focus for Muslims on spirituality.

My personal opinion is that it was insensitive and intolerant to deny pupils an opportunity to do something which they probably thought was more important than school. I still feel that a self-inflicted mountain has been made out of a molehill, egged on by sections of the media, which has introduced all kinds of irrelevancies and red herrings.

Callistemon21

growstuff

Callistemon21

Mollygo

The Muslim prayers take 10 -15 mins other faiths could use the facility at differing times.
But taking this to its natural conclusion, what if the other groups want to use it at the same time? To whom would you give preference?

That way lies chaos.

Pupils dipping in and out of lessons because they need to pray in the middle of a Maths or History lesson.

Surely most of us know what teenagers are like?

There has been no suggestion that pupils would dip in and out of lessons. This kicked off because pupils wanted to pray during the lunch break.

If they pray at the required times then some would not coincide with the lunch break.

How long is the lunch break, I wonder? At my DGC's school it's only half an hour.

I'm sure a quick chat with the local imam could sort out some flexibility about timings, so that praying could take place during the break.

growstuff

1 I'm not "stalking" you Rosie51.

2 No, I wouldn't be happy if prayer rooms were only provided for Muslim pupils and others didn't have access. However, the current court case isn't about the provision of prayer rooms. It's about pupils' being able to pray during school breaks in a place to which all pupils have access.

How about you address some of this to Glorianny who seems to think a prayer room for Muslims should be provided. I haven't once seen you tell her this is not what the court case is about.

which has introduced all kinds of irrelevancies and red herrings
Yes, it's all very fishy! (Sorry, not fish again).
But it's hooked everyone in.

I still feel that a self-inflicted mountain has been made out of a molehill, egged on by sections of the media, which has introduced all kinds of irrelevancies and red herrings.

Yep! Something started by a bully has certainly grown into a self-inflicted mountain.
I’ll wait and see whether bullying is the new way to get demands met.

Rosie51

growstuff

1 I'm not "stalking" you Rosie51.

2 No, I wouldn't be happy if prayer rooms were only provided for Muslim pupils and others didn't have access. However, the current court case isn't about the provision of prayer rooms. It's about pupils' being able to pray during school breaks in a place to which all pupils have access.

How about you address some of this to Glorianny who seems to think a prayer room for Muslims should be provided. I haven't once seen you tell her this is not what the court case is about.

Glorianny The provision of a prayer room isn't the issue. The court case is about the ban on prayers,

Happy now Rosie51?

Mollygo

^I still feel that a self-inflicted mountain has been made out of a molehill, egged on by sections of the media, which has introduced all kinds of irrelevancies and red herrings.^

Yep! Something started by a bully has certainly grown into a self-inflicted mountain.
I’ll wait and see whether bullying is the new way to get demands met.

It would appear there was bullying on both sides.

Digging beyond the media headlines, one teacher (the one who told the pupils off for praying) was called racist names. It is also alleged that a member of staff's house was targeted and a window was broken. It's not clear if it was the same member of staff. It is also alleged that some Muslim pupils were bullying others for not wearing a hijab and being part of the choir.

It is alleged that the public saw the pupils' praying and some were mocking them. That's bullying. It is also bullying to stop pupils from praying.

All of the above could have been dealt with robust anti-bullying policies.

The freedom to pray is a human rights issue. Banning it is more than bullying.

Muslim pupils were bullying others for not wearing a hijab and being part of the choir.
Eh? This is getting more and more weird. Choir? We've just had a few pages droning on about singing the wrong type of music associated with a church or religion, and now we have a full scale organised choir? And who, pray, was the choir performing to? The public who reported them? Was it a gospel choir? I thought Muslims weren't allowed to song religious songs?
I need a strong coffee.