Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

Mollygo

*That's the problem with taking a proposal to its ultimate conclusion, it makes you realise how stupid it is.*

Exactly.
Equally true
Giving in to one demand that has been brought in as a result of bullying,
taking it to its ultimate conclusion means that all demands enforced by bullying should be fulfilled.

So you agree not having a prayer room and banning prayer because children might be bullied is wrong.

That's the problem with taking a proposal to its ultimate conclusion, it makes you realise how stupid it is.

Exactly.
Equally true
Giving in to one demand that has been brought in as a result of bullying,
taking it to its ultimate conclusion means that all demands enforced by bullying should be fulfilled.

Why are posters on this thread who would probably regard themselves as socialists suddenly opposing this secular school. I had no idea that they were supporters of religious faith. Could it be that the main reason a few Grans are stirring the
Proverbial is because they dislike Katherine Birbalsingh is purely because she is a Conservative and we cannot have our schools being lead by such people.

tickingbird

Glorianny

If the reason being given for not having a prayer room is some pupils might be bullied should we carry this over into other forms of bullying? So perhaps ban ginger or fat children because they cause bullying?

I’m lost for words.

That's the problem with taking a proposal to its ultimate conclusion, it makes you realise how stupid it is.

Glorianny

If the reason being given for not having a prayer room is some pupils might be bullied should we carry this over into other forms of bullying? So perhaps ban ginger or fat children because they cause bullying?

I’m lost for words.

growstuff

With our reputation for fairness, I would have thought tolerance is a British value.

Tolerance only goes so far. I would think compromise both ways is the answer, but it doesn't work in this case, as the student, and parents will not do so. Even though they were made aware of the school rules. Their way or else , remember Batley should be the motto.

If the reason being given for not having a prayer room is some pupils might be bullied should we carry this over into other forms of bullying? So perhaps ban ginger or fat children because they cause bullying?

I simply do not understand why the school should have any form of a prayer room. Some writers on this thread ignore the FACT THAT PARENTS AND STUDENTS ENROLLED AT THE MJCHAELA SCHOOL KNOWING IT WAS SECULAR.
Muslim pupils and parents enrolled there because of its great results and all knew the rules. If they change their minds they have the option to remove their children and send them to a school that is suitable for their needs. Why must the school change? I read a quote from Karl Popper yesterday “,too much liberalism brings about the end of liberalism” Some of you give examples of schools which have prayer rooms. Bully for them! So this group of fervent Muslims can send their children to such establishment. Nobody forced Muslim children to attend a secular. School.

Mollygo

growstuff

Threats and intimidation are blatant bullying, which any school should be able to deal with.
Absolutely. But they would never be dealt with by leaving children unsupervised. In fact, in the accusatory world we live in now, younger children frequently have 2adults, for the protection of both adults and children.

Who said anything about leaving young people unsupervised?

With our reputation for fairness, I would have thought tolerance is a British value.

Chocolatelovinggran

I've often pondered on the requirements of schools to teach British Values. It would be interesting to see if we were asked, whether GNetters would be in agreement as to these.
How might they differ from, for example, French Values, or Danish Values, or?

French values? A culture that favours hedonism ...... decadence, sex and wine!

I think we teach Fundamental Values in order to discover who we really are as a nation and what sort of makes us tick. Things evolve over time, but traditions never die.

You haven't answered growstuff do you think this room should be exclusively Muslim as you seem to suggest it will only need supervision for a brief period at lunch time?

growstuff

Threats and intimidation are blatant bullying, which any school should be able to deal with.
Absolutely. But they would never be dealt with by leaving children unsupervised. In fact, in the accusatory world we live in now, younger children frequently have 2adults, for the protection of both adults and children.

Goldieoldie15

When will people of other religions and cultures who live in the U.K. stop being allowed and often helped to dictate how we should live our lives. Afraid all this multiculturalism does not work. All it does is create ever greater societal divisions and foment resentment.

How exactly are Muslims dictating how anybody else should live their lives?

Pupils need to be supervised at break times anyway.

Threats and intimidation are blatant bullying, which any school should be able to deal with.

It would be interesting to know from an independent source how much intimidation there has actually been and how it was dealt with.

Rosie51

growstuff

Callistemon21

Teenagers will always push the boundaries and this one pushed too far imo, aided and abetted by parents and others with an agenda, threats and violence.

If she wins the case, which I fear she will, it will prove that violence, threats and intimation is the way to win.

In a multicultural school, a prayer room would need to have a member of staff on duty at all times as some pupils could be intimidated and bullied by others, as has already been the case.

No, a faith room doesn't need a member of staff on duty all day. It could be for a short time during the lunch break, which would satisfy the religious requirement for Muslims to pray just after lunch. Schools have staff on duty during breaks anyway, so pragmatically all it would need is for one member of staff to be on duty either in or just outside the faith room.

Are you now suggesting a room be set aside exclusively for Muslim pupils? I thought the suggestion was a room for all faiths and any who just wish to quietly meditate. If such a room were provided I wonder if Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews would be happy to pray alongside each other?

No, of course it should not just be for Muslim pupils if the school is ordered to provide one.
That would be blatant discrimination.

It would need supervision whoever used it because threats and intimidation have taken place in the school already.

growstuff

Callistemon21

Teenagers will always push the boundaries and this one pushed too far imo, aided and abetted by parents and others with an agenda, threats and violence.

If she wins the case, which I fear she will, it will prove that violence, threats and intimation is the way to win.

In a multicultural school, a prayer room would need to have a member of staff on duty at all times as some pupils could be intimidated and bullied by others, as has already been the case.

No, a faith room doesn't need a member of staff on duty all day. It could be for a short time during the lunch break, which would satisfy the religious requirement for Muslims to pray just after lunch. Schools have staff on duty during breaks anyway, so pragmatically all it would need is for one member of staff to be on duty either in or just outside the faith room.

Are you now suggesting a room be set aside exclusively for Muslim pupils? I thought the suggestion was a room for all faiths and any who just wish to quietly meditate. If such a room were provided I wonder if Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews would be happy to pray alongside each other?

When will people of other religions and cultures who live in the U.K. stop being allowed and often helped to dictate how we should live our lives. Afraid all this multiculturalism does not work. All it does is create ever greater societal divisions and foment resentment.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

If you want your children to interrupt lessons/lunch/break time to pray in my opinion they should send them to a faith based school.

Did they though? What if they wanted to pray during their break?

We haven’t established that have we?

I included break time and lunchtime along with lesson time in my post Whitewavemark2

I am not aware of any U.K. schools other than faith schools having a separate prayer room.

My local Catholic school provides 2 prayer rooms for its Muslim pupils (girls and boys separately)

It is part of their religion to pray 5 times a day, but the only time that may affect school is in the afternoon, but after lunch instead of break time is considered normal. Many pupils travel some distance though, and they may not get home, especially in winter, in time to fit afternoon and evening prayer (which is traditionally dusk)

There was some kickback when it began (25 years ago) and the Muslim children were told that anyone could go to pray - they did not like it.
However, they were unsupervised and at the time I observed the rather riotous behaviour the boys room was being used for ( I cannot speak for now though)
As to faith schools, this may not be possible in areas of low numbers, and you do have to remember that Islam is not just one faith, with 2 main branches and many national factions (just like Christianity really)

Mollygo

The requirement to pray 5 times at specific times is not specifically written in the Quran.
*The Surah 11 Hud, Ayat 114-114 reads, "And establish the Prayer at the two ends of the day and in the first hours of the night.”*

The number of prayers are not mentioned in the Quran, but they are mentioned in the hadiths of the Prophet.

Callistemon21

growstuff

Dillonsgranma

She’s absolutely right. They can pray in their own time at home , not in school time. For heavens sake ! Who do they think they are?!?!

No, they can't if they follow their faith. One of the five pillars of Islam is to pray five times a day at set times.

Is it necessary to do so overtly? Or can Muslim child pray quietly to themselves without kneeling, just facing Mecca?
I'm not sure.

^Muslims pray facing Mecca five times a day: at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and after dark.^

I discussed this with my son-in-law. He doesn't pray anyway, but he told me that if it's not possible to kneel, for example on a bus, it's permissible to pray in any convenient position. This should have been discussed with the pupils and parents before the situation blew up.

The requirement to pray 5 times at specific times is not specifically written in the Quran.
The Surah 11 Hud, Ayat 114-114 reads, "And establish the Prayer at the two ends of the day and in the first hours of the night.”

growstuff

Dillonsgranma

She’s absolutely right. They can pray in their own time at home , not in school time. For heavens sake ! Who do they think they are?!?!

No, they can't if they follow their faith. One of the five pillars of Islam is to pray five times a day at set times.

Is it necessary to do so overtly? Or can Muslim child pray quietly to themselves without kneeling, just facing Mecca?
I'm not sure.

Muslims pray facing Mecca five times a day: at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and after dark.

“No, they can't if they follow their faith. One of the five pillars of Islam is to pray five times a day at set times.”

I don’t understand Growstuff how people who religiously follow the Islamic faith wouldn’t have ascertained at the outset that the above was possible in a non Muslim school.