Fascism in Germany

Extreme religious practices are all about control.

Religion has always been used to subjugate women, it's not just Islam and most of the practices that we abhor are cultural not religious. However, because these practices are wrapped up in a misrepresentation of a text taken from the Quran, Bible or Torah etc they are seen as "religious" rather than, for what they actually are, ie misogyny and social control. Take the Hindu custom of Sati, what purpose did it serve other than to relieve a Widow's family of the burden of looking after her?It was absolutely nothing to do with the Hindu faith but it was a very convenient means of getting rid of someone who would not contribute to the family under the guise of religious observance.

I do feel that, at base, the far right have very little use for those in society who they count as non productive and a burden on society, whereas the left has concern for the powerless and disadvantaged

Would you perhaps wonder if this pulling in opposite directions inflames the tensions MaizieD? Those on the right feel annoyed whilst those on the left ‘do good’ which in turn exacerbates the situation?

I read once that wars are unavoidable as we don’t always get on with our own families and there is kinship and some actual love there! What chance nations who don’t ’love’ one another?

I have never hidden my antipathy to strict Islam. I have no objection to modern Muslim people who accept and enjoy our liberal way of life. As a very old feminist I object to men who do not treat women as equals. I dislike the hijab because it is a sign of inequality to me. In fact I object to ANY faith where women are second class citizens . My objection is to people who want to live in a Western world then insisting that they can act in illiberal ways, I think many local and national politicians do not care. Otherwise, why aren’t all the men involved in child sexual abuse in parts of the UK not holding these awful men to account? Read Maggie Oliver’s book about this awful crime. Then there is the teacher still in hiding because he dared to show his class an image of Mohammed .In London more than one school has been threatened because political symbols on uniforms are not permitted. I can never accept any faith in our modern world which denies sexual freedom to Gays. How can any feminist not criticise ANY faith which acts like we are still living in the ancient ways. I admire any Muslim who is strong enough to come to Britain and accept our way of life. It is not always easy for then but how can any feminist support the subjugation of women? I am not some right wing bigot but I am a fierce feminist. I cannot stand women being treated unequally. That is my objection to parts of the Islamic faith. Other faiths also have some pernicious rules affecting women but I regard Islam as having the worst rules for females. I am a feminist and always will be.

Freya5

foxie48

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

Well that is how it looks to me. I'm quite entitled to my view. How dare you say I'm not.

Of course you are entitled to your view, just as I am entitled to correct it when it is based on uninformed stereotypes.

Many Christians live by the New Testament and follow it very closely. Jesus was a Jew and many Jewish people embraced and are still embracing Christianity. The Old Testament predicts the coming of Jesus, it is referenced throughout. Ishmael was a son of Abraham as well as Isaac and the conflicts in the Middle East were all predicted long ago. Too much and off the point to go into now but it is all in the OT.

foxie48

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

Well that is how it looks to me. I'm quite entitled to my view. How dare you say I'm not.

I’ve enjoyed many happy visits to Germany but I’m not Jewish. My Jewish friends have declared they will never set foot in Germany.

I thought the wall coming down was a mistake. I have Jewish heritage so have always had a cold spot where Germany is concerned. I used to know an old chap who came here from Germany in his 20s. He hated going back- for family occasions- because of the blatant fascism everywhere he went which he found sickening. Trump is the worst kind of fascist and he’ll be the president again ! So depressing .

Then Freya5, perhaps it is unwise to make statements like the following.
"The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book."

It’s on the rise again all over the world. It never really goes away - these factions still operate under the radar, under different party names, keeping very low profiles.

All they wait for is an opening to seize their moment. Trump has given them license to be active - in turn for their loyalty. They’re pretty bold and (and could be) violent in nature. They want total power.

The question is - what and who is America? Will the populace elect an aging, grieving for retribution, emotionally unstable thief, rapist and mob boss?

Think HARD if you want to surrender your rights, before you pull that lever or drop that paper ballot in.

This may be coming to your neighborhood.
USA Gundy

foxie48

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

With respect, I don't really want to understand much about Islam. My nephew, a convert, only because his in laws wouldn't let their daughter marry him if not, a type of bullying I feel, was drinking beer at a party, when I queried this,he was adamant that Koran said alcohol wasn't banned. I do understand that face covering, should be banned here, as in France, is cultural, not a religious requirement, and never seen before the Afghan hijackings. I worked with many Muslim Dr's, lovely people, non of whom pushed their religion in any ones face, that's what I care about.

foxie48

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

We should remember as well that until Spain became a Christian country, when it was Andalous and ruled over by Muslims, Jews lived peacefully and were accepted. It was the Christians who began torturing them and forcing them to convert, flee or die.
And orthodox Jewish women cover their hair once they are married, they wear a wig, not a hijab. It's not just a Muslim custom.

Freya5

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

With respect Freya5 your comment shows how little you understand with regard to Islam. There are many different sects within Islam eg Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi and although they all take the Quran as their central text, their beliefs and practices vary, just as Christianity has different beliefs and practices despite taking the Bible as the central text. I think you will find that many of the different customs eg the requirement for women to cover their hair, will be subject to cultural norms rather than required as religious observance.

Cossy

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

The difference being, the majority of Christians in this country try do not take the Old Testament as a moral code to live by. Unlike Muslims who live by the exact words of their book.

The rise of the far right in Europe is scary. Hungary has had a far right government for 10 years Poland is similar. This shows a map of where far right parties are and the percentage of votes. www.statista.com/chart/6852/seats-held-by-far-right-parties-in-europe/

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

I don't think that we, in the 21st C, appreciate how deeply important religion has been in the past. In England, the enmity between Anglicans, Non Conformists and Roman Catholics persisted for centuries. A real, deep enmity which applied in practically all walks of life and led to non Anglicans being excluded by law from all areas of public life., including, for R. Catholics, university education right up to the middle of the 19thC.

Jews were indeed hated by Christians because they were 'responsible' for the death of Christ (despite this being utterly illogical) with a strength of feeling that we just cannot comprehend these days. They were also resented because they were good at making money...but then, what else was open for them to do?

Germany wasn't the only country over the years which attempted to exterminate Jews, it's just that Hitler had the power to do it more comprehensively than others had in the past.

Jews have been persecuted for centuries and certainly not always for being “rich” They were exceedingly hard working traders historically, but there was no reason at all to persecute then, unless of course, religious zealots feel they’re responsible for killing Jesus?

Migrants have been around since the year dot. Sad to see, yet again, some OPs referring to them as “illegals” and blaming the rise of the far right solely on them!

Moslems, as a general rule, are peace living, especially those who’ve settle here in the UK. I’ve worked with Muslim men and women and found them to be hard working, open, honest people. Before you leap on me yes their Bible has some pretty radical ideas. Anyone read the Old Testament lately.

We too lived in Germany way back in the day as my Dad was based in Düsseldorf for a while. I had a really lovely German Au Pair when my children were little, she is now married with her own children back in Germany and an English Teacher. We are still in touch after all these years.

Yesterday 06:59 Curtaintwitcher

Those who are alarmed at the rise of the 'right' have only themselves to blame for allowing the 'left' to make such a mess of things.

In the words of the great tennis player, you cannot be serious

That's interesting Nannashirlz. I think Angela Merkel was lucky to leave office when she did because the situation recently has deteriorated. My understanding is that most of the uprising fascist movement is in the Eastern part of Germany which is of course where Merkel originates from.

12:39Dillonsgranma

Oh dear. History repeating itself. I wonder why so many people hate the Jews? Is it their wealth ? Or something else ?

The Germans don't hate the Jews its certain sections of Muslim groups that hate them, the Germans hate\dislike Muslim immigrants\illegals. My husband was talking to a German lady where we are staying and she said they have a big problem with migrants/illegals in Berlin.

Dillonsgranma, the Jews have been persecuted throughout history, throughout the world.

Having lived in Germany for 10yrs and found them very friendly to us military families and how they lived in a very clean country law breakers were dealt with not just ignored. What was once our homes are now given to immigrants who have destroyed the area. My German friends tell me I can understand why as the same thing is happening in my area and many other areas and countries so ppl born in these countries have had enough and are starting to voice their opinions. I said this would happen few years ago and it’s going to get worse not better unfortunately

Oh dear. History repeating itself. I wonder why so many people hate the Jews? Is it their wealth ? Or something else ?

It's horrible, and frightening.

Gradually you see these sorts of ideas becoming more acceptable to some people - not just in Europe either. It only takes a few well known big mouths to voice cruel and prejudiced ideas for people from the general population to feel emboldened to voice similar opinions.