Fascism in Germany

I think the reason the very far right aka Facism is attractive to some (not me!) is because it can focus on nationalism and patriotism and single out those with “differences”, which can frighten less educated people. Let’s remember Hitler did not just target Jews, but those with learning difficulties, the mentally unwell, those with additional needs, in fact anyone he just “didn’t like” I think racism can creep up sometimes without people really realising under the guise of things like Britain First, who seemingly support our veterans and proudly fly the Union Jack.

Extremes either way are not attractive, however true communism, as it was initially meant to be before greedy leaders hijacked it, appears, at least to me, to be far more attractive than pure facism !

I know what happens in far left regimes. There's no need for people to keep giving me examples. My degree is History/Politics.

Will no-one tell me about the 'far left' extremists in the UK that they are frightened of? And their chances of gaining power?

Sadly I believe this all to be true and extremely scary!

Oreo

I don’t think they will get anywhere politically, they are too extreme.
Just as Marine Le Pen never gets into power in France.

Judging by the opposition to them in Germany right now, you may well be right. It seems most Germans are determined that there will be no repeat of the 1930s.

I could only wish that other countries were publicly stating the same.

With far left regimes you disappear, get imprisoned or ‘re-educated’ at some sort of camp - think China, Russia etc.
With the far right regimes much the same. I find it easier to think of far left regimes than far right ones these days unless you count some of the Middle East. As far as ‘ opinions’ go, I think they are even stevens but the fact that opinions are allowed to exist kind of shows a tolerance and middle road in itself. Good for the UK that they have both and allow discussions like this. Even in places like Singapore people are not free to say what they really think. Also Hong Kong of course.

I thought we were talking about the UK, Katie59.

Who is to be feared on the far left in the UK? Or are all these posters who are frightened of the 'extreme left' frightened of a shadow?
We know about the move to the more extreme right, but where is the extreme left?

I know about other countries and their historical and contemporary sociopolitical movements in either direction. But we need to be able to identify actors in our own country in order to judge their possible effects on the UK.

“If anyone can point me at some frightening 'far left' doctrines and individuals I could, perhaps, make a better assessment of their danger.”

Obviously the communist regimes Soviet, Cuba and Venezuela, China is somewhat different, free enterprise is allowed to a point, as long as the “Party” approves. Speak out of line and you will be very quickly sent to a re-education camp, all media is censored, the population only sees what the government want them to see.

Wether it’s left or right manipulation the effect is the same, the Elite get all the advantages and the masses are controlled.

All I wanted was some examples of well known people considered to be 'far left'. I can't make a judgement of where I would consider myself to be on the spectrum unless I know what the criteria are . The terms 'far left' and 'extremist' mean nothing out of context.

'Far right' is much easier because, as I said, we have had prominent examples in public view over the past few years.

I think most people see themselves as middle of the road/centrist/able to see both sides. Not just politically but on many issues. What’s the alternative? Being blinkered, bigoted and extremist? Not many will identify with that. It’s akin to alcoholics being people who drink more than us, or the rich being those with more money than we have.

I’m another who doesn’t think there is much to choose between extremists of the left and the right. There are many racists, sexists and homophobes at both ends of the spectrum- the frightening things are more about acceptance of authoritarianism than political beliefs, really. At what point would we, any of us, put ourselves at risk to protect others? That’s not an easy question to answer honestly, though.

MaizieD

I can understand a fear of the far right because we are living with examples of it daily, but 'far left' isn't really in our radar at the moment.

I do feel that, at base, the far right have very little use for those in society who they count as non productive and a burden on society, whereas the left has concern for the powerless and disadvantaged.

If anyone can point me at some frightening 'far left' doctrines and individuals I could, perhaps, make a better assessment of their danger.

I would say that I don't think that anyone posting on these threads could be described as 'far left'.

I would say that I don't think that anyone posting on these threads could be described as 'far left'.

Glad you said that MaizieD. I have, in the past, been accused of being of that 'persuasion'.! It's so far from the truth.

I think what happens, sometimes, is that a poster makes a a forceful kind of blunt statement about (say) Capitalism, or Free-Market Libertarianism - coupled with criticism of its proponents - and the almost automatic assumption is that you must be a raging Leftie. These are simply economic systems that function in a particular way, and have particular effects on populations. It doesn't imply that speaking about the negatives means you want to institute Communism - or some other kind of highly centralised, State controlled / planned economy!

Despite my degree in German, I'm not very good at politics over there, but I know there is a Left party called die Linke and I believe there is a new far left party emerging under the leadership of Sarah Wagenknecht? Someone else might know more?

I can understand a fear of the far right because we are living with examples of it daily, but 'far left' isn't really in our radar at the moment.

I do feel that, at base, the far right have very little use for those in society who they count as non productive and a burden on society, whereas the left has concern for the powerless and disadvantaged.

If anyone can point me at some frightening 'far left' doctrines and individuals I could, perhaps, make a better assessment of their danger.

I would say that I don't think that anyone posting on these threads could be described as 'far left'.

Yes, Mauthausen is near Linz maddyone. I have only ever visited Dachau.
Back to Fascism, while in Holland recently, I noticed that Dutch people nowadays like to fiercely express their supposed resistance against the Nazi’s. That is very different to when the Nazi’s invaded the Netherlands when a lot of the Dutch actively collaborated with them. You could say the Dutch have learnt from history, but there is always that nagging doubt. Now with the rise of Pegida and the intentional incited violent resistance against refugees and Muslims in Germany, I wonder whether it might not be long before Holland too sees the return of a form of Fascism for a different reason.
The problems appear to be timeless and universal in so many countries.

The problem is that fascists and those of the like kind offer simplistic solutions to complex problems which are very attractive to people who can't cope with complexity and the time needed to provide complex and often imperfect solutions. It's partly a problem of under education exacerbated by populist/fascist politicians who play on people's paranoia and depression by offering manic solutions. All politicians play this game to some extent but fascist ones take it to extremes. Democracies need to erect barriers to these movements.

GrannyGravy13

For someone who is a centrist at heart I find both the far left and the far right equally scary

Hence my political homelessness.

Absolutely! see very little difference between the two.

Into that toxic mix I would add some of the sinister individuals/bodies who seek to inflict their vision of a new world order on the rest of us, from which they would exclude themselves of course.

GrannyGravy13

For someone who is a centrist at heart I find both the far left and the far right equally scary

Hence my political homelessness.

Me too.

I think you’re absolutely correct Joseann, as soon as I saw the name I remembered, and also about the Germans sending people from Auschwitz and other camps there as the Russians approached. I’ve read a number of memoires that detail the ‘death marches’ that prisoners were sent on as the Russians approached and many ended up in Mauthausen, as well as Belsen and Dachau. I’m not sure where Mauthausen is, I just know it’s in Austria. My son had a friend whose grandparents lived just down the road from Mauthausen and for their whole lives they denied knowing anything about the camp with its thousands of starved prisoners, who were regularly taken out in work details to do all manner of slave labour in the area. It beggars belief than anyone living so close could maintain they were ignorant of this crime for the rest of their lives. And so we see how people can completely ignore these crimes and pretend they never happened.

For someone who is a centrist at heart I find both the far left and the far right equally scary

Hence my political homelessness.

Dickens

PS Marydoll - I didn't read carefully and missed the bit about Salzburg... just noted that you travelled around Germany.

Wasn't there is Displaced Persons camp in Salzburg? My knowledge of history isn't that good.

Is it Mauthausen? One of the members, Peter, from the Amsterdam hiding annex went there. I believe the Nazis sent prisoners to Mauthausen from Auschwitz when the Russians were advancing, and Peter was one of them. He died. I think Otto Frank should have gone, but he was too sick in Auschwitz. He survived. (Sorry, I'm a bit too busy to properly check until later).

PS Marydoll - I didn't read carefully and missed the bit about Salzburg... just noted that you travelled around Germany.

Wasn't there is Displaced Persons camp in Salzburg? My knowledge of history isn't that good.

I do know Salzburg is in Austria. I should have said I was travelling around Germany and Austria.

I naively thought Fascism had ended with the war. I was of course only 19 and an innocent!

Marydoll

Having studied German at university, I have a great affection for Germany. This news makes me very sad.

In the seventies, I travelled around Germany on holiday. My friend and I entered a square in Saltzburg to find a fascist rally taking place. She didn't understand German and couldn't understand why I was huckling her out of the square.
It was frightening to hear what was being preached.

An alarming experience, Marydoll. In 1973, Germany was hit hard with the world-wide economic crisis stemming from the massive hike in oil prices and (I think) record unemployment.

This kind of agitation always bubbles to the surface in times of economic crisis, and these groups crawl out of the woodwork - because they never actually go away.

That's why we should be afraid (and I certainly am). It's like these fascists are 'waiting in the wings' for the right economic / political climate to emerge and gain new recruits... spreading their poison, isn't it?

I'm alarmed by what is happening here. Groups are being scapegoated because people are feeling the effects both of Austerity and the global economic downturn - and it isn't just immigrants. The unemployed, benefit claimants, the old (Roger Daltrey recently basically blamed old people for the parlous state of the NHS), the disabled... all have come under fire. The government encourages this or, if not encouraging it, condones it by keeping quiet, because it conveniently takes the pressure and focus off them. These economic crises are in the very nature of Capitalism, they are inevitable. Governments should be working together to try to solve these inescapable problems, but instead they allow the frustration, anger and bitterness to fester and bubble until some horrible crisis point is reached.

I find it very, very frightening. And I think we've crossed The Rubicon. That "Never Again" mantra rings rather hollow now; I don't believe we "learned" from history, and I think we are treading the same path again.

Curtaintwitcher

Those who are alarmed at the rise of the 'right' have only themselves to blame for allowing the 'left' to make such a mess of things.

I don't follow this logic at all. The fragmentation of the Conservative party has been long standing and pre-dates Brexit and Johnson's populist politics.

I loved Salzburg Marydoll and it has only happy memories for me from the twice I visited it. Of course it’s in Austria which I’m sure you know and so not the same as Germany. From my reading of various WW2 memoirs I concluded that Austria was rather more fascist than Germany during that period and so it interesting that you say this happened in the 70s. It’s rather sad too as I always associated Austria, especially Salzburg, with Mozart, The Sound of Music, and Sachertorte. I know there was a terrible concentration camp there though, but I’ve momentarily forgotten it’s name. It’s the one that had the stairs of death where inmates were made to carry huge slabs up and down the massive stone stairway until they were so exhausted that they fell off and died.
It must indeed have been frightening to hear people at a fascist rally and I would have swiftly left too.

I like to think we wouldn’t have 20% of the electorate voting for extreme right wing parties here, but I do wonder. Just for a start, we have a truly dire shortage of reasonable, affordable housing for those already here, never mind many more thousands arriving, and to add to the general cost of living crisis, rents have soared recently - at least they have anywhere around here.

And I don’t believe it’s all down to mortgage IR rises - I started seeing it in an area I watch well before any expectation of that. IMO it is (was) more a ? of supply and demand - landlords whack the rent up just because they can.

And I don’t envisage any party addressing the housing issue with anything more than the odd small sticking plaster. If Starmer has anything up his sleeve, he’s keeping very quiet about it - presumably in case the Tories pinch it.