Fascism in Germany

We need to protect UK democracy (inadequate as it can be) from extreme Right fascism and related political diseases including the fascism of the Far Left.

Glorianny

I have said before that there is a movement called Islamic Feminism. I'm not too familiar with it, but I think one of its concepts says that in dressing as they do sometimes, western women are in fact dressing for men, and that is more restrictive than covering up, and panders more to masculine ideas.

In spite of the insistence by Western women that they dress to please themselves only, I'm not entirely convinced.

Looking at the unending photo's of women posing for selfies - pouting and posing in what we used to call 'provocative' poses - some highly 'sexualised' - which accentuate all the attributes that men find attractive - the 'movement' might have a point.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong in wanting to be attractive towards the opposite (or same) sex, but to pretend that oversized lips, huge (to my eyes anyway) bottoms and boobs thrusting in their required directions, is not designed to pander to the male gaze, is a tad dishonest.

I shall now take cover because I'm sure I will be challenged on my assumptions. This debate is far more interesting than the chores lined up for me today, but I still have to get on with 'stuff'.

Dickens

Glorianny

Here's a snap taken at Wembley of the much-derided Sadiq Khan showing a public display of affection towards his non-hijab-wearing wife, seated next to a hijab-wearing lady and a shaven-headed man (I don't know who they are as I'm not a tennis fan).

It shows the wide variation of culture within Islam, as with most religions. And those cultures seems to be mostly determined by men.

... it is an interesting problem!

I have said before that there is a movement called Islamic Feminism. I'm not too familiar with it, but I think one of its concepts says that in dressing as they do sometimes, western women are in fact dressing for men, and that is more restrictive than covering up, and panders more to masculine ideas.

Glorianny

Here's a snap taken at Wembley of the much-derided Sadiq Khan showing a public display of affection towards his non-hijab-wearing wife, seated next to a hijab-wearing lady and a shaven-headed man (I don't know who they are as I'm not a tennis fan).

It shows the wide variation of culture within Islam, as with most religions. And those cultures seems to be mostly determined by men.

... it is an interesting problem!

Dickens

Glorianny

I thought this might interest some-why young women choose to wear the hijab
aboutislam.net/family-life/your-society/10-reasons-why-we-wear-hijab/

7-While wearing a proper hijab, people are not distracted by my looks, rather by my intellect, talent, and what I have to say.

Every one of those women featured are beautiful. I cannot believe that men are not aware of that.

I was under the care of a nurse in a hijab a few years ago - I remember her because she was exquisitely beautiful. She wore a fair amount of make-up which emphasised her features - especially her eyes - and I noticed men who couldn't stop looking at her. They were certainly distracted by her looks!

I noticed that. I'm not sure if these young women are aware of the impact a beautiful face can have or if they equate men's interest and distraction only with their body.
It's an interesting problem isn't it?

Glorianny

I thought this might interest some-why young women choose to wear the hijab
aboutislam.net/family-life/your-society/10-reasons-why-we-wear-hijab/

7-While wearing a proper hijab, people are not distracted by my looks, rather by my intellect, talent, and what I have to say.

Every one of those women featured are beautiful. I cannot believe that men are not aware of that.

I was under the care of a nurse in a hijab a few years ago - I remember her because she was exquisitely beautiful. She wore a fair amount of make-up which emphasised her features - especially her eyes - and I noticed men who couldn't stop looking at her. They were certainly distracted by her looks!

There was an interesting programme in the Heart and Soul series radio 4 this week called "Religion in the 21st Century : Islam. Young Muslims talking about their faith and the wearing of the Hijab was discussed. Well worth a listen and would certainly blow some of the stereotypical ideas, with regard to the oppression of women, out of the water!

I thought this might interest some-why young women choose to wear the hijab
aboutislam.net/family-life/your-society/10-reasons-why-we-wear-hijab/

TerriBull

I think it's fair to say there are positives and good people who are adherents to all faiths, but they get drowned out by the vociferous firebrands and as always that skews how outsiders will perceive their brand of religion.

Yes, that's true. We get such a biased view of so much these days that it makes the world seem like a cruel hostile place, whereas in practice, most people are kind and generous, want to live peacefully with others and are genuinely sympathetic to others who find themselves in difficulty. However, read any newspaper, listen to the news on the radio or TV or engage with social media and you are likely to be given the impression that we are surrounded by people who are "out to get us". Of course there are bad people, difficult situations and dangerous times but sometimes it's good to remind ourselves that we are really very lucky.

I think it's fair to say there are positives and good people who are adherents to all faiths, but they get drowned out by the vociferous firebrands and as always that skews how outsiders will perceive their brand of religion.

I am not religious but I have friends who are and who get great comfort from their faith. tbh I'm very slightly envious as there is a lot to be gained from being part of a faith community. I find it interesting that generally, when a religion is being discussed there is a focus on what people don't like about that religion, rarely, if ever, is there any discussion about the positive aspects of that religion. I think this is particularly true of Islam and sadly most of what is said is a misrepresentation of the Quran.

Am always amazed by those who think they know the mind of God.
Head coverings in any church, synagogue, temple and so on are all man made ideas.

One of the women in the church I used to go to always wears a head covering in church. She says it is something God wants her to do. She used to be a missionary living in the Middle East. She is a Caucasian woman. Fair enough, she doesn’t push her ideas onto anyone else and she is the only one who does.

TerriBull

Yes it's true that catholic girls and women were expected to cover their heads, but that was kicked into the long grass long ago. It's much easier to kick over the traces having been born a catholic than it was a generation or so ago, even in Ireland, in fact particularly in Ireland they are not the meek malleable adherents they once were. The church shot itself in the foot over their prevarications and cover ups of wrong doings. Yet another large body inhabited by a disproportionate number of miscreants. Although when I say that I do hear my late mother say "the majority of people in the church are good" that may well be the case, but once a reputation has been tarnished, it's hard to get the trust back, particularly when the hierarchy don't do enough to rectify and acknowledge past wrongs and that applies to so many sectors in life.

Turning to head coverings on women, well of course it's up to them and ok if they can make an informed choice to wear the hijab without pressure. I did find it very regrettable to see a column of very little girls with hijabs, certainly no more than five years old. file into a theatre production of The Gruffalo some years ago when I took my granddaughter. If female hair, as it is in many patriarchal religions deemed to represent some sort of temptation then covering up infants for that purpose is very, very sad imo.

In any case men should really be the ones to cover their heads, they are more likely to lose their hair than women Surely God's nature's way of indicating that to leave their scalp uncovered is to risk possible skin cancer, just saying!

Another good post, Terribul.

On the matter of what-women-wear and whether it's by choice or not, it's difficult to talk about the freedom of that choice if, for example, you have been brought up in a culture which deems it desirable to cover up in the interests of modesty.

As GSM points out - she still feels uncomfortable going into a church without covering head. Brought up to cover my head in church, and now an atheist - so do I. It's not easy to shrug off the culture in which you were raised, if it has been an accepted, 'done' way of life.

Modesty is not a bad characteristic - obviously in some situations it's essential. But it's a trait that should apply to men equally. Having seen wealthy Muslim families (tourists?) in the West End (well, two, to be entirely factual) - the women completely covered from head to toe whilst the men parade around in tight designer jeans and equally tight t shirts, you do have to question the whole concept of 'modesty'. Not an everyday sight, I know - but I have seen it, as have others. And it's also at odds with the modest shalwar kameez worn by men in some regions of southern and central Asia.

IMO the root of this problem is men - or should I say those men who are afraid of an educated woman, those men who regard their womenfolk as possessions; who appear to believe that women are Jezebels sent to tempt them who must be banished from society - kept largely in the home. We had one in my extended family like that... no wife of mine is ever going out to work (or words to that effect). He was on a good wage and didn't want anyone to think that his wife had to work when in fact, she wanted to, wanted to be independent - and the thought of her independence terrified him (so said the rest of the family). I think it's time men were emancipated - from their fragile egos.

No, the respect is for God and the Church. Few other folk bother with hats now, even those considerably older than me. It may not seem rational but it is, I suppose, just what I was taught as a child and it has stayed with me, as have many things I was brought up to do (or not do). One of them is only praying for others, not for myself unless asking for help and guidance.

Yes I see what you mean by your explanation, - but it isn’t very rational I think. I don’t mean that to be disrespectful, but if your God truly knows you he will know your heart and soul, so the respect you are showing is surely just for other folk?

It’s what I was brought up to do. It’s what I still feel I should do, though if it’s not ‘an occasion’ or ‘hat weather’ I am bare-headed. I suppose I see it as a mark of respect. One of my cousins remarked recently that she still feels uncomfortable wearing trousers to church. I feel the same way, though only avoid wearing them if it’s a christening, wedding or funeral.

Germanshepherdsmum

As an Anglican I was brought up to cover my head in church and still feel very uncomfortable if I don’t do so.

Why?

As an Anglican I was brought up to cover my head in church and still feel very uncomfortable if I don’t do so.

Yes it's true that catholic girls and women were expected to cover their heads, but that was kicked into the long grass long ago. It's much easier to kick over the traces having been born a catholic than it was a generation or so ago, even in Ireland, in fact particularly in Ireland they are not the meek malleable adherents they once were. The church shot itself in the foot over their prevarications and cover ups of wrong doings. Yet another large body inhabited by a disproportionate number of miscreants. Although when I say that I do hear my late mother say "the majority of people in the church are good" that may well be the case, but once a reputation has been tarnished, it's hard to get the trust back, particularly when the hierarchy don't do enough to rectify and acknowledge past wrongs and that applies to so many sectors in life.

Turning to head coverings on women, well of course it's up to them and ok if they can make an informed choice to wear the hijab without pressure. I did find it very regrettable to see a column of very little girls with hijabs, certainly no more than five years old. file into a theatre production of The Gruffalo some years ago when I took my granddaughter. If female hair, as it is in many patriarchal religions deemed to represent some sort of temptation then covering up infants for that purpose is very, very sad imo.

In any case men should really be the ones to cover their heads, they are more likely to lose their hair than women Surely God's nature's way of indicating that to leave their scalp uncovered is to risk possible skin cancer, just saying!

And the Christian requirement for women to cover their heads, particularly in church, stemmed from much the same as the Islamic belief in women as sexual objects whose uncovered state (be it hair, face or parts of the body) would inflame men's passions and sully the purity of the woman...

The covering of a women's head comes from biblical verses in the New Testament. But it says it is a custom.

People do all sorts of things through fear.
As well as being happy to do something for whatever reason.

Apparently the 1st February is World Hijab Day when Muslim women celebrate wearing the hijab.

MaizieD

Roman Catholics, too, Dickens.

Oh yes, of course. But I mentioned C of E specifically because it appears to have been forgotten in the discourse.

Yes that's interesting that sort of reflects the finding of the gender paradox - was it in Sweden? where as equality increased the numbers of women in certain professions went down.