Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Leaving a thread when there is no escape from answering a question that is utterly fundamental to the ideology that has underpinned one's previous posts shows a refusal or an inability to justify one's beliefs.

Not all beliefs can be justified, and that's often ok if they are recognised as simply matters of faith, but when someone insults and belittles others simply for disagreeing with those beliefs (or for calling them into question) it would be good if they could back them up, at least to some extent.

Doodledog

But the whole point of the gender debate is that the concept of a 'wrong gender', an 'opposite gender', a 'wrong body' and so on has to assume that there is a fixed 'right' gender or 'right body' for each sex. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Those of us who don't believe that gender norms define people can't understand how anyone, never mind a four year old child, can say they are a man or a woman, a girl or a boy based on a feeling that they are currently in the 'wrong' gender, body or sex. When we ask for clarification we are assumed to be being vexatiously argumentative or phobic, or insults such as 'pathetic' or 'silly comments' are resorted to. That is not the case - I just want to know how this works in the heads of trans supporters.

There has been a lot of 'you are mixing up sex and gender, ha ha' from you on this thread, Glorianny, and you're never shy of a 'gotcha', however tenuous, so it doesn't look good when you strop off it because you can't explain your own post. If you posted in error, fine - we all do that from time to time, but as the notion of a 'wrong' or 'opposite' gender totally underpins the trans ideology, it doesn't matter which term you intended to use - it would be good to have a clear explanation of what it means.

I said it should be "different" Doodledog
All explained but never to the satisfaction of those who constantly assert they are not transphobic but never seem able to accept any sort of departure from set gender roles, even in a child of 7.
As my intersectional feminist friends say. Ignore. Some are too set in their prejudices ever to see how things really are.

Doodledog

I think Glorianny is confusing sex and gender again.

Yes.

And refusing to acknowledge that it's the deception with its possible ramifications, that we are concerned with. Not the sex. Or gender.

But the whole point of the gender debate is that the concept of a 'wrong gender', an 'opposite gender', a 'wrong body' and so on has to assume that there is a fixed 'right' gender or 'right body' for each sex. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Those of us who don't believe that gender norms define people can't understand how anyone, never mind a four year old child, can say they are a man or a woman, a girl or a boy based on a feeling that they are currently in the 'wrong' gender, body or sex. When we ask for clarification we are assumed to be being vexatiously argumentative or phobic, or insults such as 'pathetic' or 'silly comments' are resorted to. That is not the case - I just want to know how this works in the heads of trans supporters.

There has been a lot of 'you are mixing up sex and gender, ha ha' from you on this thread, Glorianny, and you're never shy of a 'gotcha', however tenuous, so it doesn't look good when you strop off it because you can't explain your own post. If you posted in error, fine - we all do that from time to time, but as the notion of a 'wrong' or 'opposite' gender totally underpins the trans ideology, it doesn't matter which term you intended to use - it would be good to have a clear explanation of what it means.

I'm off this thread (it was different by the way). It's deteriorated into the usual 'you are putting gender norms onto people" silly comments.
I don't.
I don't believe you can tell natal women from cis women, like some do. (Although apparently I'm supposed to tell them what girl looks like)
I do think trans children are a problem for parents and schools,I don't think the current guidelines on social transitioning will help children or parents to deal with the problem.
And I think this school did an excellent job successfully educating this child for 3 years. It must have been so comforting for their parents to see this child just accepted.

Thanks Glorianny. So what was the word you meant to use?

In what ways doe 'Emma' in your hypothetical situation, look like a girl Glorianny?

Apologies in an effort to write a quick post I made an error.
"opposite" was the wrong word.
I hope you are all happy now.

Callistemon21

There cannot be an opposite gender if it is now claimed that there may be 72 genders!

And more will undoubtedly be invented. 🤣🤣🤣

Doodledog
Also, what is 'the opposite gender', please? You can have an opposite sex, as there are two, and as they perform symbiotic reproductive roles they are opposites. If you are one, you are not the other. 'Gender', however, is not fixed and even at its most stereotyped does not have an opposite. It can't. It is the move towards such intransigence of thinking about what is 'male' and what is 'female' behaviour (as opposed to biology) that is so troubling about gender ideology. It's regressive and restrictive, particularly for women.

How can there be an opposite of something that is not real?

I’d like to know that too. I think Glorianny is confusing sex and gender again.

There cannot be an opposite gender if it is now claimed that there may be 72 genders!

It's prejudice if you think that a child who wants to be the opposite gender in some way will cause harm to your child. Which it seems obvious from the comments some parents do

Have you seen comments from the parents? I haven't, but if I were in their position I would be far more concerned about the fact that the school hadn't been truthful than about my daughter playing with a boy. At seven they all played together anyway. The point, for the millionth time, is the lies. And the clear lack of forward planning wouldn't inspire confidence in the school either.

Also, what is 'the opposite gender', please? You can have an opposite sex, as there are two, and as they perform symbiotic reproductive roles they are opposites. If you are one, you are not the other. 'Gender', however, is not fixed and even at its most stereotyped does not have an opposite. It can't. It is the move towards such intransigence of thinking about what is 'male' and what is 'female' behaviour (as opposed to biology) that is so troubling about gender ideology. It's regressive and restrictive, particularly for women.

How can there be an opposite of something that is not real?

Rosie51

Glorianny

Mollygo

No Glorianny. That’s your choice of action, as is your refusal to say lying is wrong.

but you can see she looks like a girl, You’re stereotyping again, and even worse, raising awareness of stereotyping among young children, meaning they might start to use that to classify themselves and each other.

No need to go into all the details about body bits
Oh . . . unless perhaps when as a teacher, you used to say to the girls, you’ve got girls’ body bits and boys you’ve got boys’ body bits, to stimulate unnecessary interest in genitalia. 🤣🤣🤣

Mollygo when you get tired of trying to trip me up, or are able to have a reasoned argument, could you indicate it in some way.
My reference to girls and boys body parts is in keeping with Sex and relationships education.
From age three (nursery): Children should be taught the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words, what areas of the body are private, and the difference between good touches and bad touches.

From age three (nursery): Children should be taught the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words, what areas of the body are private, and the difference between good touches and bad touches.
From age three.......the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words
So it is body parts that determines whether a child is a boy or girl, not what they wear or whether they have long or short hair?

So it is body parts that determines whether a child is a boy or girl, not what they wear or whether they have long or short hair?
Of course.

As one of DD's friends excitedly announced to me at the age of three: "I've got a vagina, have you got a vagina too 'cos you're a girl?!"
I was about 30 at the time 😃

Galaxy

It's not prejudice. It's an understanding of reality.
Pretending to people that we can change sex has been an endless disaster well for everyone really.

It's prejudice if you think that a child who wants to be the opposite gender in some way will cause harm to your child. Which it seems obvious from the comments some parents do

Glorianny

Mollygo

No Glorianny. That’s your choice of action, as is your refusal to say lying is wrong.

but you can see she looks like a girl, You’re stereotyping again, and even worse, raising awareness of stereotyping among young children, meaning they might start to use that to classify themselves and each other.

No need to go into all the details about body bits
Oh . . . unless perhaps when as a teacher, you used to say to the girls, you’ve got girls’ body bits and boys you’ve got boys’ body bits, to stimulate unnecessary interest in genitalia. 🤣🤣🤣

Mollygo when you get tired of trying to trip me up, or are able to have a reasoned argument, could you indicate it in some way.
My reference to girls and boys body parts is in keeping with Sex and relationships education.
From age three (nursery): Children should be taught the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words, what areas of the body are private, and the difference between good touches and bad touches.

From age three (nursery): Children should be taught the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words, what areas of the body are private, and the difference between good touches and bad touches.
From age three.......the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words
So it is body parts that determines whether a child is a boy or girl, not what they wear or whether they have long or short hair?

Galaxy

I agree that acceptance is the problem. Acceptance of reality. People are not asking for acceptance they are asking people to lie. Or to accept a belief system that isnt theirs. That's why it hasnt worked. It's why its falling down.

Exactly.

I don't know what is difficult about this.

Lying is bad, m'kay?

No need to trip you up Glorianny, you do it for yourself.
I’m still picturing the situation with you feeling the need to annnounce facts about a child having girls bits or boys bits when talking about a specific child.
🤣🤣🤣

Reasoned argument includes explaining why you feel it’s right to lie about sex, and whether you feel lying is appropriate in all situations.🤣🤣🤣

Mollygo

No Glorianny. That’s your choice of action, as is your refusal to say lying is wrong.

but you can see she looks like a girl, You’re stereotyping again, and even worse, raising awareness of stereotyping among young children, meaning they might start to use that to classify themselves and each other.

No need to go into all the details about body bits
Oh . . . unless perhaps when as a teacher, you used to say to the girls, you’ve got girls’ body bits and boys you’ve got boys’ body bits, to stimulate unnecessary interest in genitalia. 🤣🤣🤣

Mollygo when you get tired of trying to trip me up, or are able to have a reasoned argument, could you indicate it in some way.
My reference to girls and boys body parts is in keeping with Sex and relationships education.
From age three (nursery): Children should be taught the differences between boys and girls, naming body parts with the correct scientific words, what areas of the body are private, and the difference between good touches and bad touches.

I agree that acceptance is the problem. Acceptance of reality. People are not asking for acceptance they are asking people to lie. Or to accept a belief system that isnt theirs. That's why it hasnt worked. It's why its falling down.

Glorianny

flappergirl

Caleo

Children often beak rules. A reasonable adult does not make dramas out of these events, and inavertently show others this is the best way to behave.

It is a tough world out there , and little girls and boys are not best prepared to meet the big world if they are taught that a minor incident merits hysterical squealing and tears. and spiritual decline.

My headmistress at the boarding school when she discovered us making a fuss about some small boys spying on us bathing, told us to stop makings a fuss, and closed the shutters. Job done.

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same. I can't believe these children were "traumatised". Children (especially at that age) are incredibly resilient. They don't have our preconceptions or hang ups for a start and they are insatiably curious. I know boys used to show us their willies at primary school. We'd giggle, squeal a bit and then forget about it.

I can't help feeling that if a class of children were introduced to a child as "This is Emma, she used to be called John, but you can see she looks like a girl, so she wants to be Emma. She has some body bits which are boys, but I hope you will be kind and welcome her to our class." The children would just accept the child and things would go on. It's the parents who would make a huge drama out of it and claim their children were traumatised.

You mean you now think the same as many of us on this thread?
This is what I said ages ago!

It's the parents who would make a huge drama out of it and claim their children were traumatised

Now, that is judgemental and you know nothing of the sort. You stating something is true does not make it so.

Doodledog

*I can't help feeling that if a class of children were introduced to a child as "This is Emma, she used to be called John, but you can see she looks like a girl, so she wants to be Emma. She has some body bits which are boys, but I hope you will be kind and welcome her to our class." The children would just accept the child and things would go on. It's the parents who would make a huge drama out of it and claim their children were traumatised.*
So are you now agreeing that it is the deceit that is the problem? Not ‘phobia’, not prejudice, not ‘hang ups’? But the fact that the parents and the other children were led to believe that the child was a girl. Hallelujah!

I think that your new approach might be better for the rest of the school, as it would not involve lies, but it would result in a lot of questions from the other children, which would be difficult to navigate without resorting to doctrine. It might cause further problems for the child, and as Galaxy points out, would be against the rules anyway.

No acceptance is the problem

No Glorianny. That’s your choice of action, as is your refusal to say lying is wrong.

but you can see she looks like a girl, You’re stereotyping again, and even worse, raising awareness of stereotyping among young children, meaning they might start to use that to classify themselves and each other.

No need to go into all the details about body bits
Oh . . . unless perhaps when as a teacher, you used to say to the girls, you’ve got girls’ body bits and boys you’ve got boys’ body bits, to stimulate unnecessary interest in genitalia. 🤣🤣🤣

I can't help feeling that if a class of children were introduced to a child as "This is Emma, she used to be called John, but you can see she looks like a girl, so she wants to be Emma. She has some body bits which are boys, but I hope you will be kind and welcome her to our class." The children would just accept the child and things would go on. It's the parents who would make a huge drama out of it and claim their children were traumatised.
So are you now agreeing that it is the deceit that is the problem? Not ‘phobia’, not prejudice, not ‘hang ups’? But the fact that the parents and the other children were led to believe that the child was a girl. Hallelujah!

I think that your new approach might be better for the rest of the school, as it would not involve lies, but it would result in a lot of questions from the other children, which would be difficult to navigate without resorting to doctrine. It might cause further problems for the child, and as Galaxy points out, would be against the rules anyway.

It's not prejudice. It's an understanding of reality.
Pretending to people that we can change sex has been an endless disaster well for everyone really.

Mollygo

*The antipathy you’re presumably referring to in my case is to lying.*
The parents demanding that the head and staff lie and the child itself lying.
You do know you can’t change sex don’t you Glorianny?

The antipathy, opposition and prejudice will start if said child wants to use its chosen gender to access things to which he is not entitled. e.g. the Spanish cyclist who says he will sue if he’s not allowed to win the women’s race!

Or, from my personal experience, if said child uses demands linked to its gender choice to bully others. (I’m referring in this instance to a girl at high school.)

Those who don’t do that are unlikely to hit problems, especially as you say you can’t tell the difference.

Where do you think lying should stop being acceptable? Is all lying unacceptable e.g. from politicians? Or is lying only acceptable about sex?

The parents of the child at the CofE primary I referred to earlier said their child wanted to be known as the opposite sex. The head informed staff and children. There was no secrecy, no lying that the child was the opposite sex.

You are confusing sex and gender again Mollygo

Galaxy

That would go against current guidelines, and would not be a neutral act.

I know that. Just pointing out that children accept others until their parents implant prejudice and judgement.