Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

The antipathy you’re presumably referring to in my case is to lying.
The parents demanding that the head and staff lie and the child itself lying.
You do know you can’t change sex don’t you Glorianny?

The antipathy, opposition and prejudice will start if said child wants to use its chosen gender to access things to which he is not entitled. e.g. the Spanish cyclist who says he will sue if he’s not allowed to win the women’s race!

Or, from my personal experience, if said child uses demands linked to its gender choice to bully others. (I’m referring in this instance to a girl at high school.)

Those who don’t do that are unlikely to hit problems, especially as you say you can’t tell the difference.

Where do you think lying should stop being acceptable? Is all lying unacceptable e.g. from politicians? Or is lying only acceptable about sex?

The parents of the child at the CofE primary I referred to earlier said their child wanted to be known as the opposite sex. The head informed staff and children. There was no secrecy, no lying that the child was the opposite sex.

That would go against current guidelines, and would not be a neutral act.

flappergirl

Caleo

Children often beak rules. A reasonable adult does not make dramas out of these events, and inavertently show others this is the best way to behave.

It is a tough world out there , and little girls and boys are not best prepared to meet the big world if they are taught that a minor incident merits hysterical squealing and tears. and spiritual decline.

My headmistress at the boarding school when she discovered us making a fuss about some small boys spying on us bathing, told us to stop makings a fuss, and closed the shutters. Job done.

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same. I can't believe these children were "traumatised". Children (especially at that age) are incredibly resilient. They don't have our preconceptions or hang ups for a start and they are insatiably curious. I know boys used to show us their willies at primary school. We'd giggle, squeal a bit and then forget about it.

I can't help feeling that if a class of children were introduced to a child as "This is Emma, she used to be called John, but you can see she looks like a girl, so she wants to be Emma. She has some body bits which are boys, but I hope you will be kind and welcome her to our class." The children would just accept the child and things would go on. It's the parents who would make a huge drama out of it and claim their children were traumatised.

GrannySomerset

And does she have any idea how long the waiting list for a CAMHS appointment is, even for young people with urgent problems?

Of course I know how long the waiting list is (I take it I'm "she") which is why getting the child into school at 4 and on the waiting list is important.
Because what is quite obvious from posts on these threads is that no matter how happy the child might be in their chosen gender at 4, the antipathy, opposition and prejudice they will meet as they grow will result in them needing as much support as they can get.

Doodledog I hadn't refreshed the page, same point made in a similar way

flappergirl

Caleo

Children often beak rules. A reasonable adult does not make dramas out of these events, and inavertently show others this is the best way to behave.

It is a tough world out there , and little girls and boys are not best prepared to meet the big world if they are taught that a minor incident merits hysterical squealing and tears. and spiritual decline.

My headmistress at the boarding school when she discovered us making a fuss about some small boys spying on us bathing, told us to stop makings a fuss, and closed the shutters. Job done.

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same. I can't believe these children were "traumatised". Children (especially at that age) are incredibly resilient. They don't have our preconceptions or hang ups for a start and they are insatiably curious. I know boys used to show us their willies at primary school. We'd giggle, squeal a bit and then forget about it.

I'm wondering how you knew they were boys and not girls? Did each and every one declare"I am a boy" before showing you their penis. Did any "boys" show you their vulvas? Boys can have vulvas unless you're a bigot!

But you knew they were boys. It’s a strange child who wouldn’t be concerned if a girl showed them her penis. That’s the reason this is worrying. It’s nothing to do with ‘hang ups’.

Caleo

Children often beak rules. A reasonable adult does not make dramas out of these events, and inavertently show others this is the best way to behave.

It is a tough world out there , and little girls and boys are not best prepared to meet the big world if they are taught that a minor incident merits hysterical squealing and tears. and spiritual decline.

My headmistress at the boarding school when she discovered us making a fuss about some small boys spying on us bathing, told us to stop makings a fuss, and closed the shutters. Job done.

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same. I can't believe these children were "traumatised". Children (especially at that age) are incredibly resilient. They don't have our preconceptions or hang ups for a start and they are insatiably curious. I know boys used to show us their willies at primary school. We'd giggle, squeal a bit and then forget about it.

And does she have any idea how long the waiting list for a CAMHS appointment is, even for young people with urgent problems?

CAHMS is for mental health.
Is claiming to be the opposite sex a mental health problem?
I just find it interesting that, failing to say you don’t endorse lying to children, or children being told to lie or adults being compelled to lie to suit others, you then changed tack to bring in CAHMS.
What next?

What was pathetic Doodledog
As I have already said was you attempting to say I expected a teacher to cope when I had already said that the child would in school be able to receive support from other people and agencies
I didn’t ‘attempt to say’ anything. I shall leave others to read what I said, and make their own judgement. I really have had enough of attempting to engage in discussion at this level- it is frustrating and pointless.

Glorianny

Mollygo

CAHMS
That implies that the child has mental health problems. Is that what you’re saying?

I don't know the child. I would never assume anything. However it is likely that any trans person will encounter significant problems in their life which will impact on their mental health. In any case a trans child will need help from a gender clinic, so finding the right help is essential and the earlier that process is started the better, surely?

I find it very odd that people who think transgender children are somehow influenced or caused by their parents would quite happily leave the responsibility for caring for, and educating that child to those parents, simply because they are unable to reconcile confidentiality issues. I can't think of any other issue when a belief that harm was being caused to a child would result in the child being firmly handed over to the people causing the harm. I don't believe harm is being caused, but I do believe the child needs supportive and helpful care and education.

Mollygo
I answered your question about CAHMs
Here it is again. Perhaps you could bother to read it.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Incidentally if it makes you feel better I think your approach would be possible today with the current advice on social transitioning. I just don't think it would have been 3 years ago.

I'm not sure the advice will help the child or the parents who may be trying desperately to cope.

So why is what I am saying 'pathetic'? Something is either sensible or it's not - the fashion for advice blows with the wind. You have been arguing vociferously (not to say offensively) that something you agree would now be considered good advice was wrong, narrow minded, and all sorts of other negatives.

Whether the boy or the parents would benefit from affirmation is not something that any of us can answer. What does seem clear to me is that the other children will lose from a situation in which they are being deceived by their teachers, and find that their trust in a friend was misplaced, too.

This looks like yet another example of the wishes of one transperson being put over the needs of a larger number who are not trans.

What was pathetic Doodledog
As I have already said was you attempting to say I expected a teacher to cope when I had already said that the child would in school be able to receive support from other people and agencies

Elegran

Glorianny

Smileless2012

Refusing to collude in the deception that this boy is a girl would not be refusing him entry Glorianny. The parents could have accepted the school's position and have him attend as a boy, or looked for a different school.

And in doing so may well have opened the school up to accusations of discrimination .

No one has any idea what was discussed with the parents before the child was accepted.

But is it really discrimination if they accepted him but would not do it secretly?

It could be regarded as discrimination under the law. If for example the parents were to claim that the school refused to make a reasonable adjustment (using the correct gender term) and they felt this would impact negatively on their child's mental health.

One of the few trans-people I have ever met was born a girl but told her parents that she was a boy at the age of two.

Her family were totally accepting, but she had to attend school as a girl, although she was accepted as a boy by he parents, brother and sisters at home.

She eventually made a successful transition in her teens and attended university as a young man.

Glorianny

Smileless2012

Refusing to collude in the deception that this boy is a girl would not be refusing him entry Glorianny. The parents could have accepted the school's position and have him attend as a boy, or looked for a different school.

And in doing so may well have opened the school up to accusations of discrimination .

No one has any idea what was discussed with the parents before the child was accepted.

But is it really discrimination if they accepted him but would not do it secretly?

Glorianny

Incidentally if it makes you feel better I think your approach would be possible today with the current advice on social transitioning. I just don't think it would have been 3 years ago.

I'm not sure the advice will help the child or the parents who may be trying desperately to cope.

So why is what I am saying 'pathetic'? Something is either sensible or it's not - the fashion for advice blows with the wind. You have been arguing vociferously (not to say offensively) that something you agree would now be considered good advice was wrong, narrow minded, and all sorts of other negatives.

Whether the boy or the parents would benefit from affirmation is not something that any of us can answer. What does seem clear to me is that the other children will lose from a situation in which they are being deceived by their teachers, and find that their trust in a friend was misplaced, too.

This looks like yet another example of the wishes of one transperson being put over the needs of a larger number who are not trans.

So should any teacher teach a child to lie or encourage a child to lie?

*You suggested support from CAHMS-which is for mental health.
Do you think that the claim to be the opposite sex is a mental health issue, Glorianny?*
If not, why mention CAHMS?

Presumably this is unanswerable. 🤣🤣🤣

Incidentally if it makes you feel better I think your approach would be possible today with the current advice on social transitioning. I just don't think it would have been 3 years ago.

I'm not sure the advice will help the child or the parents who may be trying desperately to cope.

Smileless2012

Refusing to collude in the deception that this boy is a girl would not be refusing him entry Glorianny. The parents could have accepted the school's position and have him attend as a boy, or looked for a different school.

And in doing so may well have opened the school up to accusations of discrimination .

No one has any idea what was discussed with the parents before the child was accepted.

Refusing to collude in the deception that this boy is a girl would not be refusing him entry Glorianny. The parents could have accepted the school's position and have him attend as a boy, or looked for a different school.

I would not have refused to teach the child, but would have refused to collude in the affirming of the child being in the 'wrong gender'. I don't see how the parents could have refused to 'so something' as a result of that. They could have left it at that and gone elsewhere, agreed that their child be known as a boy, or educated him at home. They did have options.

And I was not trying to get out of an issue by picking holes in an argument! That accusation is deeply ironic.

Doodledog

I object to being called 'pathetic'. Your posts get increasingly personal, rude and against the spirit of GN.

I am NOT 'trying to deflect from what I actually said', which was NOT that I would refuse a child a school place because they asked for confidentiality. That is an actual lie, which is not something I say lightly.

What I said several times was that the right to confidentiality does not mean that a request has to be accommodated. It can be refused but kept confidential. If the parents were not happy with that, they have other options, which include, but are not limited to, home educating the child. They could also look for another school, although if they found one that would accede to their request the problem would remain for the children attending that one. Another alternative which you seem to find too unthinkable to even consider, is that they accept the sex of their child and send him to the school of their choice.

The contortions in your posts to avoid considering that alternative (about whether the child is 'really trans', how leaving him in the care of his parents might mean that he was at risk and that at school the boy would be better off) included this:
So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.

You may not have used the word 'surrounded', but that does not alter the sense of what you said.

I did NOT say that a teacher is not a professional - quite the reverse. I very specifically said that they are professional educators, not social workers or psychologists. Diluting their expertise by expecting them to be jacks of all trades is not, IMO a good thing.

If you would just sometimes read people's posts instead of looking for ways to catch them out, and address the points that posters make instead of increasingly desperate 'gotchas' these discussions might make some sort of progress. Is that beyond you?

I didn't call you pathetic. I said trying to get out of an issue by picking holes in an argument is pathetic.

Accusing the parents of not accepting the sex of their child because they have asked it be kept confidential is judgemental.

Sending the child to another school is passing the buck.
No matter what the issue with the child a teacher finds a way to educate them. That is their job. It doesn't make them a "jack of all trades".

Children with problems, no matter what the nature of that problem need to be accommodated in schools. That's the nature of inclusion. In doing so the teacher refers the child to professionals for advice and help. It is not up to individual teachers to decide what information is, or is not, confidential.

I've addressed all your points and found them wanting.
Your solution seems to be you would insist the parents do something they might well refuse to do. If they did so you would refuse to teach the child.
This could involve the school in a discrimination charge.

Any child with problems needs to be educated, which is what teachers do with appropriate help.
Exactly. I teach them. I have a class TA and a SEND TA if appropriate for those who need extra support. I occasionally have a work experience person or a parent helper. I’m not expected to discuss the children with the latter two adults but I’m not expected to lie to them either.

So if asked, is that child a boy, I would say the matter is confidential or not appropriate to ask-which as I explained, would answer the question.

At the C of E school where I have experienced this, I was asked by a child,
Do you know that Charlie is really a boy?

I was in a position to say yes, because the matter was not a secret.

But faced by that from a child in the school in question here, what would anyone, not just Glorianny answer?

How would you deal with the follow up explanations from the child questioning you?
Lie and say No - (you would almost certainly be told that it’s true by your interlocutor, possibly with detail.)

It’s confidential. Not an exact lie, but if they ask what that means, what would you answer without implying that it’s something secret?

Say yes

So should any teacher teach a child to lie or encourage a child to lie?

*You suggested support from CAHMS-which is for mental health.
Do you think that the claim to be the opposite sex is a mental health issue, Glorianny?
If not, why mention CAHMS?

I object to being called 'pathetic'. Your posts get increasingly personal, rude and against the spirit of GN.

I am NOT 'trying to deflect from what I actually said', which was NOT that I would refuse a child a school place because they asked for confidentiality. That is an actual lie, which is not something I say lightly.

What I said several times was that the right to confidentiality does not mean that a request has to be accommodated. It can be refused but kept confidential. If the parents were not happy with that, they have other options, which include, but are not limited to, home educating the child. They could also look for another school, although if they found one that would accede to their request the problem would remain for the children attending that one. Another alternative which you seem to find too unthinkable to even consider, is that they accept the sex of their child and send him to the school of their choice.

The contortions in your posts to avoid considering that alternative (about whether the child is 'really trans', how leaving him in the care of his parents might mean that he was at risk and that at school the boy would be better off) included this:
So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.

You may not have used the word 'surrounded', but that does not alter the sense of what you said.

I did NOT say that a teacher is not a professional - quite the reverse. I very specifically said that they are professional educators, not social workers or psychologists. Diluting their expertise by expecting them to be jacks of all trades is not, IMO a good thing.

If you would just sometimes read people's posts instead of looking for ways to catch them out, and address the points that posters make instead of increasingly desperate 'gotchas' these discussions might make some sort of progress. Is that beyond you?