Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Presumably there were no problems because he'd been accepted by his fellow class mates as a girl.

Surely it would have been better for all concerned, especially the child in question, if it had been explained to him that at school he had to be known by the name he'd been given at birth, and depending on the school's rules about school uniform, could dress in a way that didn't define him as a boy.

IMO the school should never have agreed for a boy to attend as a girl, and the parents should never have expected them too or request that they did so.

I don’t ask why parents chose to lie in the first place. I don’t ask why they expected school to perpetrate their lie.
If (and I do have some experience of this, and it was also at a CofE primary school) they had said he was born a boy but wanted to be a girl in the first place, it would have been a seven day wonder.
The child demonstrating that he is a boy by waving his willy around in front of girls or any anyone, would still have been wrong.
But some people will still not admit that.

Any reasons for the parents not wanting to tell the truth can only be arrived at by speculation. Is that ok if it results in a story that fits your narrative, Glorianny?

There may have been good reasons, but there may also have been good reasons why the other children should have been told. It’s not for you, me or the HT to decide what other people have a right to be told.

I feel for the child. He is clearly confused, and has now been embroiled in a situation that has spun way beyond the control of his parents or the HT. They may well have been acting in what they saw as his best interests, but the Head overstepped his/her authority and the parents have difficult decisions to make. If I were his mum I might be inclined to take him out of the area, if this were possible to fit around jobs, housing etc, but not only would a troubled child have that upheaval but he would have to go to his next school as a boy if the whole sorry situation is not to start up again. Tangled webs and all that.

Galaxy

Sorry but the information you are providing about dsds is not really accurate. The majority of people with a dsd are able to be identified as Male or female eg they are not a magic third sex. The figure of comparing the numbers to redheads has also been strongly criticised as it included conditions which do not meet the category of 'intersex'. The actual figure where sex might be considered to be difficult to classify for want of a better term is thought go be 0.018 %.
Now anything is possible but I think we can only go with the current information.

Thank you for the response.
The suggestion remains that this could be the case for this child, which makes more sense of the situation than anything else I've read.
Plenty are making much from very little information.

There may have been good reasons, but there may also have been good reasons why the other children should have been told. It’s not for you, me or the HT to decide what other people have a right to be told
Sorry as I have already posted teachers and staff in schools have an obligation to keep confidential personal information. It isn't a choice it is a legal requirement

Glorianny

*There may have been good reasons, but there may also have been good reasons why the other children should have been told. It’s not for you, me or the HT to decide what other people have a right to be told*
Sorry as I have already posted teachers and staff in schools have an obligation to keep confidential personal information. It isn't a choice it is a legal requirement

Safeguarding is also a legal requirement I believe.

There seems to have been little thought to the little girls who were subject to this boy getting out his penis and waving it at them…

And as I have already posted there may be a legal requirement not to break a confidence, but (a) that doesn't apply where safeguarding is an issue, and (b) it does not compel the HT to lie. All s/he had to do was say 'I won't tell anyone that you have asked me to pretend your child is a girl, but if he is to attend this school it will be in accordance with the current advice, which is not to affirm 'gender' confusion.' That way, the other children would have been protected from ongoing trust issues, the child's confusion may not have been worsened, and this whole debacle could have been prevented.

I would be interested to know how far the child himself was able to give informed consent to any of this.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

There may have been good reasons, but there may also have been good reasons why the other children should have been told. It’s not for you, me or the HT to decide what other people have a right to be told
Sorry as I have already posted teachers and staff in schools have an obligation to keep confidential personal information. It isn't a choice it is a legal requirement

Safeguarding is also a legal requirement I believe.

There seems to have been little thought to the little girls who were subject to this boy getting out his penis and waving it at them…

He was invited on playdates and for sleepovers too.

How many years would this have been kept from other parents? Surely there could be safeguarding issues if no-one had any inkling their daughters' friend was in fact a boy?

In fact, he has now demonstrably proved that himself.

One girl's mother did know and having worked at the school, was sworn to secrecy. How will the parents of other children in the friendship group, who did not know, regard her now?
She was the one who eventually raised concerns and has been 'pestering' the school to deal with the issue.

eazybee

One girl's mother did know and having worked at the school, was sworn to secrecy. How will the parents of other children in the friendship group, who did not know, regard her now?
She was the one who eventually raised concerns and has been 'pestering' the school to deal with the issue.

This is an example of how people are forced to collude with this ideology - often against their own best interests. How can it be ok to insist that a teacher colludes in the deception of children and their parents?

Another example is the insistence on declaring pronouns on emails or screens - that forces people to be seen to accept that what we see is not necessarily what we get, so we need to be told someone's 'gender' preference after centuries during which knowing their name was enough.

I wonder why coercion is considered necessary when it comes to the education sector? There has just been yet another case where a professor suffered discrimination and victimisation for expressing her views as a psychologist (listen to Jo Phoenix tell her story on Woman's Hour - 23rd January episode on Sounds) and the VC of the OU has apologised to her, but not before she had to go through hell. Is the coercion because otherwise too many people would refuse to co-operate otherwise? People working in education are usually questioning types who look for evidence, and don't meekly 'follow orders' without understanding why and agreeing that they are necessary, at least up to a point.

On the whole I would love to turn the clock back and be young again, but this issue is one that makes me pleased not to be building a career in education these days. I'd like to think that the woman you mention is being supported by her union, but sadly I doubt that that will be the case.

Doodledog

And as I have already posted there may be a legal requirement not to break a confidence, but (a) that doesn't apply where safeguarding is an issue, and (b) it does not compel the HT to lie. All s/he had to do was say 'I won't tell anyone that you have asked me to pretend your child is a girl, but if he is to attend this school it will be in accordance with the current advice, which is not to affirm 'gender' confusion.' That way, the other children would have been protected from ongoing trust issues, the child's confusion may not have been worsened, and this whole debacle could have been prevented.

I would be interested to know how far the child himself was able to give informed consent to any of this.

There was no such advice when his child started school 3 years ago. It might help if people looked at how things were then and not insist rules only just introduced should have been applied then.

There was no such advice when his child started school 3 years ago. It might help if people looked at how things were then and not insist rules only just introduced should have been applied then.
The rule back then was that the child had to be admitted with the details on the birth certificate. They’re always checked carefully.

Whatever the rule was, in my wide and varied experience, I’m sure it didn’t include asking staff to lie.

Would you be happy to compel/allow teachers to lie about anything else Glorianny?
The implication by your support if this lie is that you would.

I'm not sure that girls of this age would be that bothered by a boy "Waving his penis about" When I was this age in the 50s the boys I played with did it all the time. "You show me your's and I'll show you mine" was a favourite game.

eazybee

The worst thing about this is the lying.
Staff were sworn to secrecy, including one whose daughter was in the same class as this boy, and was very disturbed when, aged seven, he started flashing his penis in the cloakroom and threatened something terrible would happen to them if they 'told.'
Plus the fact the child is registered as a girl in the school register, a legal document.

Maybe things were done differently in my schools, but no child’s sex/gender was in the school register, which certainly wasn’t a ‘legal document’.
If the sex/gender was recorded when the child was first enrolled for school, then it would be taken from the birth certificate, not what the five year old wanted it to be.

But you knew the boys you were playing with were boys Deedaa, this boy's class mates believed him to be a girl because that's what they were told.

There was no such advice when his child started school 3 years ago. It might help if people looked at how things were then and not insist rules only just introduced should have been applied then.
If by ‘people’ you mean me, I’m not looking at how things were, are or will be - I am saying that if the HT (who is not subject to any special legalities when it comes to confidentiality) felt that keeping the child’s sex secret was not in the best interests of the numerous other children in her care, all the HT had to do was take on board the parents’ wishes, accept that they don’t want their child’s sex to be made public and refuse to comply. Then the parents could try to find another school for their child.

Being approached by someone with a confidential request does not oblige one to accede to it, which is my point. The fact that the request was made can remain a private matter, but the HT was under no obligation to go along with any of this.

Deedaa

I'm not sure that girls of this age would be that bothered by a boy "Waving his penis about" When I was this age in the 50s the boys I played with did it all the time. "You show me your's and I'll show you mine" was a favourite game.

Well if that happened at our C’s schools or now any of our our GC’s schools they would have been/be removed immediately and a complaint put in to HT, Board of Governors and the Education Department, no ifs or buts.

Boys willy waving at any age is inappropriate and shows the upmost disrespect for the girls.

Deedaa

I'm not sure that girls of this age would be that bothered by a boy "Waving his penis about" When I was this age in the 50s the boys I played with did it all the time. "You show me your's and I'll show you mine" was a favourite game.

They might have done it when you were at school. Things were different then that are acknowledged as unacceptable now e.g. corporal punishment.

The girls would have reported it-to friends, teachers, parents or grandparents even back in the when you were at school. They might have thought it was funny, but they’d still have told.

Deedaa

I'm not sure that girls of this age would be that bothered by a boy "Waving his penis about" When I was this age in the 50s the boys I played with did it all the time. "You show me your's and I'll show you mine" was a favourite game.

😯

The boys I knew certainly didn't do that.
They did teach me to swear, much more useful.

Deedaa

I'm not sure that girls of this age would be that bothered by a boy "Waving his penis about" When I was this age in the 50s the boys I played with did it all the time. "You show me your's and I'll show you mine" was a favourite game.

Times have changed. Children now are taught about giving and withholding consent (particularly to being touched), and about inappropriate sexualised behaviour.

I was at school in the late 60s/70s and it certainly didn’t happen all the time, and would have been frowned upon if it had.

Im sorry Doglover but I find drag queens wanting to read to children creepy. Drag has always been an adult entertainment. At its best it is a an expression of exaggerated femininity that mocks women, at the worst it is sexualised which is confusing and worrying for the children.
It's the little girls who see their gender mocked maybe the boys find it funny. There is no way I would take a toddler to such a reading which is often the audience the event is aimed at.. And yet one is seen as transphobic if you don't join in. No that's gaslighting. Councils, who are paying for such performances in libraries think they are being on-trend and progressive, in fact they just have been captured by Stonewall. We must resist the imposition of gender ideology on our children in the same way as we sensibly resist stereotyping their gender.

Treelover 👏🏻

Treelover 👏👏

I think you must have gone to an unauthorised school Daddima. Class registers are legal documents, and children's names are entered according to sex, as specified on their birth certificate, which has to be produced before they are entered for the school.
And Deeda, boys waving their penis about in front of girls is not a common occurrence, and has never been tolerated.
Finally, no school has the authority to ask school to lie about a pupil's circumstances. Head teachers may have knowledge they do not share about family circumstances, orders against parental access, permission withheld for photographs, but the reasons are not discussed.
This school obviously cannot be identified, but I hope this matter is not allowed to drop and the people who condoned this deliberate deception should be removed and struck off. Far more serious than refusing to use 'preferred' pronouns.

Daddima

eazybee

The worst thing about this is the lying.
Staff were sworn to secrecy, including one whose daughter was in the same class as this boy, and was very disturbed when, aged seven, he started flashing his penis in the cloakroom and threatened something terrible would happen to them if they 'told.'
Plus the fact the child is registered as a girl in the school register, a legal document.

Maybe things were done differently in my schools, but no child’s sex/gender was in the school register, which certainly wasn’t a ‘legal document’.
If the sex/gender was recorded when the child was first enrolled for school, then it would be taken from the birth certificate, not what the five year old wanted it to be.

Children used to be listed as boys and girls, but I believe that was dropped and they were just listed alphabetically. I once did supply for a teacher who used to bring his dog into school. When I was calling the register the children thought it was hilarious because I called out the last name on the list. It was the dog's name!