Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Sorry you have weird Ideas about what is deceit.
It's confidentiality. It's a teacher's duty to a child who could be put at risk (and some of the posts on these threads show how much at risk). A teacher cannot legally share information about a child except with other professionals

Can you point us to the legislation that lays out what information cannot legally be shared, please?

All I can find is here, on the government website and there is no mention of keeping sex confidential.

Good data protection practices ensure that an organisation and the individuals within it can be trusted to collect, store and use our personal data fairly, safely and lawfully.

Personal data is information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual.

In a school, examples of personal data include
identity details (for example, a name, title or role)
contact details (for example, an address or a telephone number)
information about pupil behaviour and attendance
assessment and exam results
staff recruitment information
staff contracts
staff development reviews
staff and pupil references

Special category data is personal data that’s considered more sensitive and given greater protection in law.

Special category data includes
racial or ethnic origin
political opinions
religious or philosophical beliefs
trade-union membership
genetic information
biometric information (for example, a fingerprint)
health matters (for example, medical information)
sexual matters or sexual orientation

In a school, it would be best practice to also treat as special category data any personal data about:

a safeguarding matter
pupils in receipt of pupil premium
pupils with special educational needs and disability (SEND)
children in need (CIN)
children looked after by a local authority (CLA)

That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.

So Sexual matters is nothing to do with sex?
That's an odd conclusion.
Nor anything to do with medical information?
Nor a safeguarding matter.

The confidentiality issue refers at age 7 mainly to the parents, although should the school have decided it was necessary to tell other parents about the child, they would have had to find a way of explaining to the child what was going to happen, and to elicit the child's feeling about that. Had the child objected or shown distress at the prospect they would have needed to find a way of mitigating that before proceeding.

Thanks for that very comprehensive post Doodledog.
There is of course also the issue of the child understanding the confidentiality and what this means.
E.g. not Willy waving when you’re claiming to be a girl.
Or had the parents convinced the child that all girls had the same equipment as him?

Glorianny

Sorry you have weird Ideas about what is deceit.
It's confidentiality. It's a teacher's duty to a child who could be put at risk (and some of the posts on these threads show how much at risk). A teacher cannot legally share information about a child except with other professionals

Can you point us to the legislation that lays out what information cannot legally be shared, please?

All I can find is here, on the government website and there is no mention of keeping sex confidential.

Good data protection practices ensure that an organisation and the individuals within it can be trusted to collect, store and use our personal data fairly, safely and lawfully.

Personal data is information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual.

In a school, examples of personal data include
identity details (for example, a name, title or role)
contact details (for example, an address or a telephone number)
information about pupil behaviour and attendance
assessment and exam results
staff recruitment information
staff contracts
staff development reviews
staff and pupil references

Special category data is personal data that’s considered more sensitive and given greater protection in law.

Special category data includes
racial or ethnic origin
political opinions
religious or philosophical beliefs
trade-union membership
genetic information
biometric information (for example, a fingerprint)
health matters (for example, medical information)
sexual matters or sexual orientation

In a school, it would be best practice to also treat as special category data any personal data about:

a safeguarding matter
pupils in receipt of pupil premium
pupils with special educational needs and disability (SEND)
children in need (CIN)
children looked after by a local authority (CLA)

That's all pretty comprehensive, but I can see nothing about the sex of a child being protected data.

Callistemon21

In fact, discussion of this at a young age would have meant acceptance instead of the fright and shock his friends experienced.

Hiding the fact that this girl was in fact a boy conveyed the message to the other children that it was something to conceal and to be ashamed of; totally the wrong message.

Absolutely

In fact, discussion of this at a young age would have meant acceptance instead of the fright and shock his friends experienced.

Hiding the fact that this girl was in fact a boy conveyed the message to the other children that it was something to conceal and to be ashamed of; totally the wrong message.

GrannyGravy13

Smileless2012

Allowing a child's class mates to believe that their friend is a girl when in fact he is a boy, is deceit Glorianny.

Anyone who cannot understand this needs to give their head a good wobble.

Indeed!

Smileless2012

Allowing a child's class mates to believe that their friend is a girl when in fact he is a boy, is deceit Glorianny.

Anyone who cannot understand this needs to give their head a good wobble.

Sorry you have weird Ideas about what is deceit.
It's confidentiality. It's a teacher's duty to a child who could be put at risk (and some of the posts on these threads show how much at risk). A teacher cannot legally share information about a child except with other professionals

Smileless2012

Allowing a child's class mates to believe that their friend is a girl when in fact he is a boy, is deceit Glorianny.

Exactly.

Allowing a child's class mates to believe that their friend is a girl when in fact he is a boy, is deceit Glorianny.

Maybe Mollygo doesn't read her own posts!!
Nor apparently does Doodledog

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I read everyone's posts.

Of course confidentiality is not deceit. Nobody said it was. Confidentiality is not acquiescence either, which I have said repeatedly. I could ask you to give me a million pounds and keep it to yourself. Would that compel you to hand it over?

I very much doubt that the child is a danger to other children. He is seven, and clearly disturbed, but can, presumably be contained. What is a danger to the children is the fact that they are being trained to mistrust the adults who are supposed to be responsible for them.

So you don’t know how to arrange a safe place for all children then. No surprise there.
And you are unable to explain ‘looks like a girl’ no surprise there either.

Confidentiality is not deceit.
You’re right, but being expected to lie is unacceptable and being seen to have lied puts unwilling liars in an unacceptable position.

Are you really happy to be expected to lie in any circumstance Glorianny?

Maybe Mollygo doesn't read her own posts!!
Nor apparently does Doodledog

Confidentiality is not deceit.
The school would only be able to share information about the child with the parents consent. If the school thought that the child presented some sort of danger to other children then the proper reaction would be to request help and advice from a higher body. If they felt they were providing adequate safeguards for all they wouldn't need to do anything.

Who is asking you to define things? Really! Do you only read my posts?
funnily enough, no.

What have you been asked to define? You have been asked to clarify a number of things, such as what you feel about the deception of the other children, the fact that keeping confidentiality does not mean the same as acceding to demands and the existence of anonymous registers, which is not the same thing at all. You have chosen to ignore all of that, though.

Children are harder to differentiate than adults - I would have thought that would be obvious. The main differences become apparent during and after puberty. That's not really the point though, is it? The point is that teachers are supposed to be people children can trust, and in this case they let the children down badly.

Another wonderful wriggle!
In the case you knew of . . .
Gloriany You wrote

Child looks like a girl
So it’s not unreasonable to ask what you mean by that, even if I don’t use the word define.

Glorianny, you wrote
If there is thought to be any time or place where the child in question might present a problem, or the teacher is concerned about other pupils, her job is to create a place where the children are protected and safe,

So how would you do that with children who have differing views of what makes them feel safe, e.g. if one or more child’s view is that boys waving willies or even just being in the girl’s changing rooms as would happen at the pool, makes them feel unsafe?

You’ve raised these points so you know obviously know what you would do.

I’m really interested to know how you would organise this place where ALL the children are protected and safe.
How would you deal with the concerned parents?

Obviously, the first thing to do is tell the boy not to demonstrate that he is a boy. But once he’s done that, there is no going back.

Or for that matter a cat
It isn't a teacher's job to decide how a child is identified

Yes, I do know of one pupil who identifies as an animal.

Yes, it is the Head Teacher's responsibility to say that schools are for human pupils, not furry animals and to refer the child and the parents to CAHMS as a matter of urgency.

That is where common sense has completely flown out of the classroom window.

Doodledog

Who is asking you to define things? It is the child's parents and the HT who are defining him as a girl. We are simply pointing out why this dishonesty is potentially harmful to other children. Oh, and questioning things you have specifically mentioned, such as compulsory confidentiality and anonymous registers.

Do you think that it is ok for a class of children to be misled like this? How would you explain to a seven year old that the friend she thought was a girl is actually male, and that the teachers had lied to her? How is that child going to trust the evidence of her eyes in future? Would her confusion not give you any pause for thought?

Who is asking you to define things? Really! Do you only read my posts?

How is it harmful?
There is much claiming on these threads that it is easy to distinguish men from women. So perhaps the children are being done a service, being shown at an early age it isn't always easy to tell

Who is asking you to define things? It is the child's parents and the HT who are defining him as a girl. We are simply pointing out why this dishonesty is potentially harmful to other children. Oh, and questioning things you have specifically mentioned, such as compulsory confidentiality and anonymous registers.

Do you think that it is ok for a class of children to be misled like this? How would you explain to a seven year old that the friend she thought was a girl is actually male, and that the teachers had lied to her? How is that child going to trust the evidence of her eyes in future? Would her confusion not give you any pause for thought?

Why am I expected to define things for you? I don't care if a boy comes dressed as a girl claims he is and mixes mostly with girls, or if a girl says she's a boy. Or for that matter a cat. Just as I would cope with a dyslexic child, an autistic child, an elected mute or any other child I'm there to educate the child. If I think the child or the family need help I'd refer them to the relevant authorities.

It isn't a teacher's job to decide how a child is identified. Nor is it a teacher's job to reveal personal information about a child.
If there is thought to be any time or place where the child in question might present a problem, or the teacher is concerned about other pupils, her job is to create a place where the children are protected and safe, but she should do so whilst respecting the child's right to confidentiality. If any teacher thought that wasn't possible then she should consult the safeguarding head of the school and make that clear.
In this case no one did.

In the case of the child I knew there was a small group of children and parents who had known the child since she was a baby. He started school as a boy along with the other children. So a small group of parents always knew. It never caused any bother.

Good post Doodledog
At what point was this deception planned to end? Is it still ok to have a boy in a girls' dorm on a school trip when they are 14? Playing sport with the girls after puberty? Where are the rights of the girls here? Has informed consent become a thing of the past?

This is a very pertinent point, that needs addressing. Is informed consent only for some, not all? The girls involved in this situation weren't offered any boundary keeping at all.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive

Another good point Mollygo about swimming lessons, what would have happened had it not already come out that this 'girl' was in possession of a male body? How would they have managed the changing facilities?

At what point was this deception planned to end? Is it still ok to have a boy in a girls' dorm on a school trip when they are 14? Playing sport with the girls after puberty? Where are the rights of the girls here? Has informed consent become a thing of the past?
I hadn’t even got to age 14. Children go swimming in KS2 as part of the curriculum.
Is this another girls must accept boys in their changing rooms if the boys want it?
In Canada, evidently a 50 year old man identifying as a woman was allowed to compete against girls and share a locker room with girls as young as 8
So taking things to their natural conclusion . . .

If you're not wriggling Glorianny why not answer Molly's questions?

How do you define how a primary school child looks like a boy or a girl? There are plenty of unisex options available for school uniforms and I often see primary school age boys with long hair for example and girls with short hair.

I've never come across any school for boys and girls where the boys only play with boys and the girls only play with girls.

Every member of staff was forced into colluding in a lie. It's a ridiculous situation that should never have been allowed to begin with.

The point, surely, is that the children and their parents were deceived and at least one teacher was forced to collude in this deception. Where are her rights?

There has been no response to the point I made earlier that being approached with a request does not compel the HT to comply with it. Confidentiality in a case like this is fair enough, insofar as there is no obvious need for the HT to make the request public, but there was no need for the deception. A simple 'sorry, but that's not possible' would have sufficed.

Confidential registers? When did they come in, and why? I can understand codes for disabilities, allergies or other information that only a teacher might need to know, but when did sex become confidential? Are you saying that keeping the sex of children private is a legal requirement, Glorianny?

There are some things that should of course be confidential. Medical conditions, issues to do with a child's domestic arrangements, anything that might prove difficult for the child if other children knew - a father who's in jail for murder, that sort of thing. But those things don't impact on the other children in the way that letting them think that a boy is a girl might. Mostly, on a day to day basis, it won't matter at all. But when a child has a sleepover, for instance, shouldn't the parents be able to decide if they invite members of the opposite sex? You or I might not differentiate, and that is our right, but why should other people be denied the right to make their own decisions?

At what point was this deception planned to end? Is it still ok to have a boy in a girls' dorm on a school trip when they are 14? Playing sport with the girls after puberty? Where are the rights of the girls here? Has informed consent become a thing of the past?

🤣🤣🤣. Glorian y

When we moved house I was a supply teacher in several schools for quite a long time, so I don’t decry supply teachers.

Laugh away. I’m quietly chuckling at your wriggling.

Unanswered questions Won’t or can’t?

So that’s a whole school teaching staff asked to be complicit in a lie and you’re OK with that?

Child looks like a girl
^nice bit of stereotyping there Glorianny 🤣🤣.

How do you define looks like a girl or even looks like a boy at primary?

plays with the girls
-*Do you mean in your wide and varied social experience, that any boys playing with girls must be girls?* 😱

One child wouldn’t skew the figures significantly
But taking that to its natural conclusion, if this became more frequent, it certainly would, and not in favour of girls achievement any more than it does in sport.
Or don’t you think so?

Mollygo

Lovely wriggle Glorian y.
Exactly why I would know and you as a supply teacher wouldn’t.
So that’s a whole school teaching staff asked to be complicit in a lie and you’re OK with that?

Child looks like a girl
^nice bit of stereotyping there Glorianny 🤣🤣*.
How do you define looks like a girl or even looks like a boy at primary?

plays with the girls
-Do you mean in your wide and varied social experience, that any boys playing with girls must be girls? 😱

One child wouldn’t skew the figures significantly
But taking that to its natural conclusion, if this became more frequent, it certainly would, and not in favour of girls achievement any more than it does in sport.

Not teaching anymore Mollygo I was a supply teacher for many years. I loved the fact that it gave me a wide and varied experience of schools, children and teachers. But I was also contracted for many years. Some short term, but the final a long and very happy experience.
I always think those who decry supply teachers should be sent out to try it. Most wouldn't last a day.

Well if undermining the system is going to be done by children defining themselves as a different gender sadly I think it's safe for a long time.
You may think I'm "wriggling". I'm in fits of laughter at your exaggeration.