Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Any reasons for the parents not wanting to tell the truth can only be arrived at by speculation. Is that ok if it results in a story that fits your narrative, Glorianny?

There may have been good reasons, but there may also have been good reasons why the other children should have been told. It’s not for you, me or the HT to decide what other people have a right to be told.

I feel for the child. He is clearly confused, and has now been embroiled in a situation that has spun way beyond the control of his parents or the HT. They may well have been acting in what they saw as his best interests, but the Head overstepped his/her authority and the parents have difficult decisions to make. If I were his mum I might be inclined to take him out of the area, if this were possible to fit around jobs, housing etc, but not only would a troubled child have that upheaval but he would have to go to his next school as a boy if the whole sorry situation is not to start up again. Tangled webs and all that.

I don’t ask why parents chose to lie in the first place. I don’t ask why they expected school to perpetrate their lie.
If (and I do have some experience of this, and it was also at a CofE primary school) they had said he was born a boy but wanted to be a girl in the first place, it would have been a seven day wonder.
The child demonstrating that he is a boy by waving his willy around in front of girls or any anyone, would still have been wrong.
But some people will still not admit that.

Presumably there were no problems because he'd been accepted by his fellow class mates as a girl.

Surely it would have been better for all concerned, especially the child in question, if it had been explained to him that at school he had to be known by the name he'd been given at birth, and depending on the school's rules about school uniform, could dress in a way that didn't define him as a boy.

IMO the school should never have agreed for a boy to attend as a girl, and the parents should never have expected them too or request that they did so.

Doodledog the only report on what happened as regards the incident came second hand from a mother who was obviously upset by what happened and would unconsciously put a degree of stress on what happened which favoured her daughter. The concept of putting all the blame onto a 7 year old boy who showed his penis, implying that he waved it aggressively, or that he was someway responsible for the concept that having it had to be a secret, upsets me. So I looked for a reasonable explanation. It's a pity others can't do that.

For 3 years this child was educated with others. There were apparently no problems. Whatever led to the incident the child had been accepted and was a part of the school community. All those now choosing to paint him in such a negative light should ask themselves why the parents feared to tell about their child in the first place.

Don’t know where to start to unpick how damaging this is on so many levels. The world has gone mad.

Glorianny

Doodledog

I wonder if the girls were taking part in "you show me yours" common at that age. The boy, stressed, showed his penis and said it was a secret. Nothing aggressive about it.

Speculation?

Do single sex groups play I'll show you mine if you show me yours? I have no idea (and anyway, to consider it would require speculation), but clearly the boy must have known that his was different from theirs. QED.

In the interests of 'gender' equality? What does that actually mean, please? If you mean sex discrimination, then yes, all children should be treated the same, but that does not mean that they should be able to expose their genitals gratuitously. It is treating them the same to allow/enable them to undress in front of their own sex, and to have privacy and dignity when doing so. This was denied the girls, who were led to believe that they were in the company of other female children.

Primary school children generally undress in the same places until the age of 8+. Up until 7 (the age that used to be called infants) most schools just use classrooms or cloakrooms. Some schools used to have children doing PE in vest and pants, as far as I know this wasn't considered harmful to any of them

That reply has entirely avoided the questions in mine.

1. You accused me of speculation. I am asking whether your supposition that the children are playing 'I'll show you mine. .' is not exactly that - speculating?

2. Doesn't the fact that the child was waving his penis about show that he knows he is a boy?

3. Doesn't the fact that the children had been deceived into believing that the child was a girl make it unlikely that they were showing one another their genitals out of curiosity, anyway? Never mind, as that is speculation, too. But if they thought they were showing them to other girls, having a boy pretending to be a girl will have altered the dynamics hugely.

4. What does 'in the interests of gender equality' mean? Sex discrimination would be about giving preferential treatment to one sex over the other. Gender equality as a concept doesn't mean much to me, but it is not treating children equally to have all the boys except one doing something*, and all the girls except for one doing something different.

*As you point out, there are not likely to be many differences between what boys and girls are doing at that age, so why do there have to be lies told about this child? It is only likely to be in situations where there is nakedness that they are separated, surely, and in those situations it is disrespectful to the girls to remove their right to single-sex spaces without informed consent from either the girls themselves or their parents.

Enjoy your holiday, Iam. I wondered where you'd been!

Glorian y
Primary school children generally undress in the same places until the age of 8+. Up until 7 (the age that used to be called infants) most schools just use classrooms or cloakrooms.

But many schools now have children come to school in PE kit once they start KS2. Some schools even in KS1. for convenience and safeguarding.

Some schools used to have children doing PE in vest and pants, as far as I know this wasn't considered harmful to any of them.

As far as you know . . . i.e. you don’t know.

None of us, even in our wide and varied social experience, know. But if there was a thread about that, I’m sure there would be accounts of the shame or dislike and lasting horror of PE in underwear.

Incidentally, in deprived areas of Liverpool, where I taught, that practice had stopped by the time my children went to school.

Show me yours. . . Possibly at home, but actually, in all my years teaching, I’ve never come across that among girls in primary school.
(Or in boys in the early years. I don’t go into boys toilets in KS2.)
Anyone who teaches primary knows that children would be quick to report others doing that.

Either that or my wide and varied social experience doesn’t include noticing children doing that in school, when some people evidently do.😁

I’m away, lucky me , with very occasional WiFi. I haven’t RTT entirely but didn’t want to leave without saying - The Cass Report is so important
I’m with granny gravy, my two (girls ) cantered round the garden regularly. It’s playing. I find this focus on encouraging small children to believe they’re in the wrong body obscene. It doesn’t mean I’m unaware of the issues or that I don’t care but there’s a growing body of research to challenge the focus on gender being the most important focus in children. I’m writing quickly befire the WiFi goes so expect my use of language to be challenged.

Welby has done nothing as far as I can see about Vennels being a priest so I doubt he will bother about this.

JaneJudge

over interest in genitalia can also be a sign of abuse, so should be taken seriously

Show me yours is not an "over interest in genitalia" Most children play it.

over interest in genitalia can also be a sign of abuse, so should be taken seriously

Doodledog

*I wonder if the girls were taking part in "you show me yours" common at that age. The boy, stressed, showed his penis and said it was a secret. Nothing aggressive about it.*

Speculation?

Do single sex groups play I'll show you mine if you show me yours? I have no idea (and anyway, to consider it would require speculation), but clearly the boy must have known that his was different from theirs. QED.

In the interests of 'gender' equality? What does that actually mean, please? If you mean sex discrimination, then yes, all children should be treated the same, but that does not mean that they should be able to expose their genitals gratuitously. It is treating them the same to allow/enable them to undress in front of their own sex, and to have privacy and dignity when doing so. This was denied the girls, who were led to believe that they were in the company of other female children.

Primary school children generally undress in the same places until the age of 8+. Up until 7 (the age that used to be called infants) most schools just use classrooms or cloakrooms. Some schools used to have children doing PE in vest and pants, as far as I know this wasn't considered harmful to any of them

I wonder if the girls were taking part in "you show me yours" common at that age. The boy, stressed, showed his penis and said it was a secret. Nothing aggressive about it.

Speculation?

Do single sex groups play I'll show you mine if you show me yours? I have no idea (and anyway, to consider it would require speculation), but clearly the boy must have known that his was different from theirs. QED.

In the interests of 'gender' equality? What does that actually mean, please? If you mean sex discrimination, then yes, all children should be treated the same, but that does not mean that they should be able to expose their genitals gratuitously. It is treating them the same to allow/enable them to undress in front of their own sex, and to have privacy and dignity when doing so. This was denied the girls, who were led to believe that they were in the company of other female children.

Glorianny

Galaxy
No I am able to identify the sex of people, it's a well known skill that humans have. I dont base my decisions on stereotypes, so if for example a man has long hair and makeup (stereotypes of what women look like) I am still able to identify him as a man.
Mollygo
Galaxy
You have to realise that some people just can’t tell.
Some people will talk about it being difficult for others to tell the difference because they have strong, deep voiced, muscular friends and have a wide, varied social circle (or maybe they say they do.) covering any subject that comes up, and yet they still can’t tell.

But you and I can tell, and that’s hard for those who can’t tell to believe, so they will come up with all sorts of excuses.

Children often beak rules. A reasonable adult does not make dramas out of these events, and inavertently show others this is the best way to behave.

It is a tough world out there , and little girls and boys are not best prepared to meet the big world if they are taught that a minor incident merits hysterical squealing and tears. and spiritual decline.

My headmistress at the boarding school when she discovered us making a fuss about some small boys spying on us bathing, told us to stop makings a fuss, and closed the shutters. Job done.

Doodledog

Here we go again - insinuations of unworldliness and a pretence that we can’t tell men from women. In this case the child left his classmates in no doubt. Whatever is going on in his head, he is in possession of a penis, which he used to demonstrate his maleness.

Confidentiality is one thing (although only applicable in some circumstances). Keeping something private does not, however, equate to a need to lie or to confirm misapprehensions. The Head needn’t have told others that this was a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but that doesn’t mean that s/he has to pretend to believe that too.

Many people believe that their children are the most precious beings on earth. At school, however, they are one of many, and have to accept that, however reluctantly. It’s part of the point of being educated in a group setting.

This is all speculation.
As far as the head is concerned in the interests of gender equality all children should be treated the same.
If the parents say this child is called X, please refer to him as "he", is the head believing anything, or just abiding by the parent's wishes?

As for the behaviour in the toilet.
I wonder if the girls were taking part in "you show me yours" common at that age. The boy, stressed, showed his penis and said it was a secret. Nothing aggressive about it.
The sad bit is the interpretation being put on what happened. Children used to be castigated for taking part in such activities. I thought we had got past such ideas.

I was thinking how much I admired this school who have managed to give 3 years of education to a troubled child, enabling him and his family to live a normal life. I hope they are all coping now it has blown up in their faces.

Intersex isn't that rare, l think the incidence is about the same as the number of redheads.

The number of intersex people in the population is disputed and thought to be far lower, by many scientists and medical professionals, than claimed by some.

It's hilarious. I actually saw this quite a lot when I worked in the HIV/Aids field, well meaning people sure they were right, chanting the mantras, so so sure.

Here we go again - insinuations of unworldliness and a pretence that we can’t tell men from women. In this case the child left his classmates in no doubt. Whatever is going on in his head, he is in possession of a penis, which he used to demonstrate his maleness.

Confidentiality is one thing (although only applicable in some circumstances). Keeping something private does not, however, equate to a need to lie or to confirm misapprehensions. The Head needn’t have told others that this was a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but that doesn’t mean that s/he has to pretend to believe that too.

Many people believe that their children are the most precious beings on earth. At school, however, they are one of many, and have to accept that, however reluctantly. It’s part of the point of being educated in a group setting.

Mollygo

Galaxy

No I am able to identify the sex of people, it's a well known skill that humans have. I dont base my decisions on stereotypes, so if for example a man has long hair and makeup (stereotypes of what women look like) I am still able to identify him as a man

Galaxy
You have to realise that some people just can’t tell. Some people will talk about it being difficult for others to tell the difference because they have strong, deep voiced, muscular friends.
But you and I can tell, and that’s hard for those who can’t tell to believe, so they will come up with all sorts of excuses.

Or maybe they just have a wider and more varied social circle.

Galaxy

No I am able to identify the sex of people, it's a well known skill that humans have. I dont base my decisions on stereotypes, so if for example a man has long hair and makeup (stereotypes of what women look like) I am still able to identify him as a man

Galaxy
You have to realise that some people just can’t tell. Some people will talk about it being difficult for others to tell the difference because they have strong, deep voiced, muscular friends.
But you and I can tell, and that’s hard for those who can’t tell to believe, so they will come up with all sorts of excuses.

Galaxy

No I am able to identify the sex of people, it's a well known skill that humans have. I dont base my decisions on stereotypes, so if for example a man has long hair and makeup (stereotypes of what women look like) I am still able to identify him as a man

Maybe you just don't see many different types of people

No I am able to identify the sex of people, it's a well known skill that humans have. I dont base my decisions on stereotypes, so if for example a man has long hair and makeup (stereotypes of what women look like) I am still able to identify him as a man

Mollygo

Lying to children, is a good idea . . .
For some.
Compelling others to lie to children or endorse your lie is a good idea . . .
For some.
But
politicians lying is a good idea
opposing sides in current conflicts is a good idea
Says no-one.
What a strange world we live in.

Galaxy

We reveal childrens sex pretty much every day, can you pick him up at 4, she has hurt her hand, perhaps the further guidance needs to be that when we do this we are referring to sex.
I actually am quite sceptical of this report for various reasons but it's useful to discuss the issues.

But we aren't. Those are gender words. Unless you ask someone to prove their sex when you use them???