Emergency Aid To Gaza Halted Because Israel Says So?

Galaxy

No I wont make the mistake of the German people. We have different views of the links between then and now.

If we do compare there were quite a few people in the UK in the 1930s who thought Jews were unacceptable. The people I know who support Palestine are very clear they have no issues with Jews.
Those condemning Hamas however seem to have problems with Muslims in many countries.
So I do wonder who is most at risk?

No I wont make the mistake of the German people. We have different views of the links between then and now.

foxie48

Absolutely.

There is mountains of experience behind that letter, we must listen to these people and not make the mistake that the German people did in the 30s.

Whitewavemark2

CNN

More than 800 officials from the United States and Europe have signed a scathing criticism of Western policy towards Israel and Gaza, accusing their governments of possible complicity in war crimes.

In a statement obtained by CNN, the officials say there is a “plausible risk that our governments’ policies are contributing to grave violations of international humanitarian law, war crimes and even ethnic cleansing or genocide.”

They accuse their governments of failing to hold Israel to the same standards they apply to other countries and weakening their own “moral standing” in the world.

Among them are around 80 United States officials and diplomats.

BBC

More than 800 serving officials in the US and Europe have signed a statement warning that their own governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war could amount to "grave violations of international law".
The "transatlantic statement", a copy of which was passed to the BBC, says their administrations risk being complicit in "one of the worst human catastrophes of this century" but that their expert advice has been sidelined.
It is the latest sign of significant levels of dissent within the governments of some of Israel's key Western allies.
One signatory to the statement, a US government official with more than 25 years' national security experience, told the BBC of the "continued dismissal" of their concerns.
"The voices of those who understand the region and the dynamics were not listened to," said the official.
"What's really different here is we're not failing to prevent something, we're actively complicit. That is fundamentally different from any other situation I can recall," added the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The statement is signed by civil servants, diplomats and government officials from the US, the EU and 11 European countries including the UK, France and Germany.

This was also on the BBC website yesterday and IMO shows the extent to which the actions of Israel and the support being given by some countries is being questioned by people with much more experience of Middle East politics than anyone posting on this thread. World opinion has turned against Israel, few people can stomach seeing innocent women and children being slaughtered, especially when there is no clear end in sight. If the world had been able to see what was happening in Nazi Germany, I have no doubt that Hitler would have been stopped but information was not as freely available then. However, it's different now. We know what is happening in Gaza, we've seen the devastation caused by the IDF's bombs, we know that innocent women and children are being killed in their thousands and we know what the aims of the Israeli right wing government are ie exactly the same as Hamas, no peace, no two state solution and the obliteration of the Jews or the Palestinians. Where this will end is anyone's guess but one thing is for sure, this is not the way to give Israelis a safe place to live!

Israel not only has a duty to protect civilians during war, it has a double duty, because it is an occupying force.

Israel has an absolute right to defend itself, but natural justice insists that it does so with proportionality, and in my view as well as millions around the world, it is failing the natural justice test.

With regard to Hamas - they exist in numerous countries around the Middle East and none of those countries view them as terrorists, so they are welcome if not actively supported. So by getting rid of them in Palestine, they will still exist.

Violence is simply not the way to achieve anything.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I believe in Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorists.

Unfortunately Hamas hide amongst the population of Gaza.

I feel immense sympathy for all who have lost loved ones, who are maimed and who are living in fear in the region.

If and when a ceasefire is agreed on it will take years to rebuild the relationship between Israel and Palestinians.

I cannot see a place for Hamas in Gaza or the West Bank…

You assume Israel want a relationship with Palestinians. I'm not sure they do.
As for defending themselves, they have a duty in war to protect the civilian population, in both the type of munitions they have used (huge bombs with inaccurate targeting and large areas of destruction), and their instructions to the civilian population (go south you will be safe there, but they are still bombed) Israel has not met that duty.

Glorianny I believe in Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorists.

Unfortunately Hamas hide amongst the population of Gaza.

I feel immense sympathy for all who have lost loved ones, who are maimed and who are living in fear in the region.

If and when a ceasefire is agreed on it will take years to rebuild the relationship between Israel and Palestinians.

I cannot see a place for Hamas in Gaza or the West Bank…

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny widen your viewing/reading there are multiple examples of Hamas Head Honchos stating that they will repeat the atrocities of 7/10 time and time again until their is not a single Jew on the planet…

There are also multiple examples of right wing Israelis saying they will kill all Palestinians. Should I believe both of these are true?

It’s up to you.

That's fine. I believe neither is either probable or possible.
What I don't understand is anyone who chooses to believe one but not the other.
Either you believe the extremists will hold sway, in which case both Palestinians and Jews are doomed.
It isn't logical to believe Hamas but not Israel. Particularly given the immense firepower Israel commands.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny widen your viewing/reading there are multiple examples of Hamas Head Honchos stating that they will repeat the atrocities of 7/10 time and time again until their is not a single Jew on the planet…

There are also multiple examples of right wing Israelis saying they will kill all Palestinians. Should I believe both of these are true?

It’s up to you.

Well, I can’t answer that unless you expand your question.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny widen your viewing/reading there are multiple examples of Hamas Head Honchos stating that they will repeat the atrocities of 7/10 time and time again until their is not a single Jew on the planet…

There are also multiple examples of right wing Israelis saying they will kill all Palestinians. Should I believe both of these are true?

Do you think it's possible there might be other reasons why Hamas are allegedly close to a ceasefire.

Anniebach

Hamas and diplomacy ?

You will be pleased to know that Qatar has stated that Hamas are close to agreeing a ceasefire

Diplomacy was the tool used.

Glorianny widen your viewing/reading there are multiple examples of Hamas Head Honchos stating that they will repeat the atrocities of 7/10 time and time again until their is not a single Jew on the planet…

maddyone

Glorianny
All the murder victims count. All of them.
But let’s not pretend that the ‘peace’ in Northern Ireland wasn’t bought at a high price.
And Hamas do not want peace, their stated intention is to kill every Jew in Israel.

Well if you want to compare Ireland and Gaza, look at how Patrick Keilty and his brother were offered IRA membership at his dad's funeral. A supportive family helped him say "No". Then reflect on how many young men in Gaza Hamas will be recruiting now. Men whose whole families have been wiped out. Then think how many of the orphaned children will grow up to hate Israel.
So even the idea that Hamas can be beaten by this bombing campaign is wrong. As has been said you cannot kill an idea. But in any case the concept that Israel's aim is to destroy Hamas is wrong. They know it can't be done. It's much more about clearing Northern Gaza and occupying it and trying to get Egypt to accept some of the Palestinians packed into Southern Gaza

Glorianny
All the murder victims count. All of them.
But let’s not pretend that the ‘peace’ in Northern Ireland wasn’t bought at a high price.
And Hamas do not want peace, their stated intention is to kill every Jew in Israel.

maddyone

What about the families of soldiers who were murdered by the IRA?
What about the families of Unionists who were murdered by the IRA?
Don’t those families count?

What about the families of people murdered by the UDA?
Don't they count?
Read Patrick Keilty's account of his father's death. He has said he could never forgive the killers, but if the peace stops another family going through what his did, it is worth not seeing them convicted.

The victims of pub bombings in England

maddyone

Diplomacy only works if you give in to the terrorists. The ‘peace’ deal in Northern Ireland involved giving in to the demands of terrorists. Nonetheless it stopped much, but not all, the violence. However we now have the appalling situation whereby IRA murderers walk the streets unhindered, and even sit in our parliaments, whilst ex soldiers of the British Army are prosecuted, or threatened with prosecution, in their old age, for doing their jobs!
Diplomacy only works when both sides are prepared to give and take, and importantly, they stick to it. I don’t think Hamas will stick to any agreement until they take Israel as their own.

If you want to get things right maddyone there are also Loyalist (I hate that term it gives them some appearance of legitimacy) Protestant killers walking the streets as well.

As for Hamas. They set up a political wing and were prepared to negotiate a two state solution. It was Israel who refused it. The two state solution accepted by Hamas required them to return the land taken in 1967 (as the UN resolution did). Israel consistently refuses to do so.

What about the families of soldiers who were murdered by the IRA?
What about the families of Unionists who were murdered by the IRA?
Don’t those families count?

there were three sides murdering in NI not just republicans...the British army may have been "doing their job" but they were not doing it in the manner it should have been and they murdered ...yes murdered countless innocents thinking a uniform gives them the right.I know most on here will never believe anything thats "british military" can behave as abominably as they did ...but look at history ..recent history.There are just as many rogue soldiers wearing british uniforms as any other nation has.
I do wish you could see things through the eyes of the families who suffered under British military in many places ,Ireland was just the latest My NI family can attest to it

Diplomacy only works if you give in to the terrorists. The ‘peace’ deal in Northern Ireland involved giving in to the demands of terrorists. Nonetheless it stopped much, but not all, the violence. However we now have the appalling situation whereby IRA murderers walk the streets unhindered, and even sit in our parliaments, whilst ex soldiers of the British Army are prosecuted, or threatened with prosecution, in their old age, for doing their jobs!
Diplomacy only works when both sides are prepared to give and take, and importantly, they stick to it. I don’t think Hamas will stick to any agreement until they take Israel as their own.

This account by CNN explains how the bombs Israel is using are not "smart" bombs which are directed at specific targets but undirected general munitions which hit civilians. There is also a first report from inside Gaza by a US reporter. If you want to see the horror watch, but be warned you will cry. edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html#:~:text=It%20is%20not%20clear%20what,

Hamas and diplomacy ?