Shemima Begum.

Ok, she would be a British citizen if citizenship hadn't been denied her.

I see your point that if she is still dangerous she will be one more dangerous person in Syria.

It's not easy. I don't care about the cost, and as I say, I think making an example of children is abhorrent, but I do accept that there may be more to this than we know.

She is no longer a UK citizen. The farther away she is, the better imo. She will be just one more dangerous person in Syria.

15 year old children should never be used as an example to others. Also, justice should not depend on cost.

If there are known facts (as opposed to prejudice and suppositions) about the likelihood of her being a risk to the security of the UK, then I can understand that it might be better if she didn't return, and we have to take that on trust, as for obvious reasons we can't be told what those facts might be. At the same time, as a UK citizen, where else is she supposed to go? Surely she is far more likely to be (further) radicalised if she stays in Syria? It's not as simple as some posts make out.

No. She should not be allowed back to the UK. An example to others.
Meanwhile the lawyers will be rubbing their hands. Who is paying for all this? Us?

Regardless of the danger which the security services clearly consider she now poses? I have pointed out upthread that she would be unlikely to be imprisoned for very long as the only crime she has committed here is joining a proscribed organisation. After serving a short sentence she would be free. Would you feel safe?

Iam64

foxie48

Primrose53

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

People who have experienced trauma often present like this, emotionally shut down. It's how people cope. I've seen her interviewed and there's a complete blankness about her. Just try to imagine what she has gone through, it may be her own fault but it doesn't make her experiences any less real. Giving birth without the support of her family and seeing all three children die, seeing the most dreadful violence, living in fear for her life whilst knowing that escape is pretty impossible. All of this between the ages of 15 and 19. I could go on but is it surprising that she's found her way of coping by becoming "emotionless"

This simplistic, angry, ill informed assessment of SB doesn’t assist in any way.
She was a wilful , easily groomed 15 year old when she went to join the caliphate. We know a little of her life since then, none of it conducive to developing into a stable, reflective, mature woman in her mid twenties. I’ve met women and girls who dismiss trauma in the way she has. Their flat,unemotional presentation usually improves when they’re safe and supported.

Simplistic, perhaps. Angry, no, not at all. Ill informed, possibly I don't know SB any more than you do but you feel qualified to describe what she was like prior to going to Syria! We do agree on one thing though, that she was groomed, "a wilful, easily groomed 15 year old" I totally agree with you and that is precisely why she be brought back to the UK to face any charges that can be brought.

foxie48

Primrose53

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

People who have experienced trauma often present like this, emotionally shut down. It's how people cope. I've seen her interviewed and there's a complete blankness about her. Just try to imagine what she has gone through, it may be her own fault but it doesn't make her experiences any less real. Giving birth without the support of her family and seeing all three children die, seeing the most dreadful violence, living in fear for her life whilst knowing that escape is pretty impossible. All of this between the ages of 15 and 19. I could go on but is it surprising that she's found her way of coping by becoming "emotionless"

This simplistic, angry, ill informed assessment of SB doesn’t assist in any way.
She was a wilful , easily groomed 15 year old when she went to join the caliphate. We know a little of her life since then, none of it conducive to developing into a stable, reflective, mature woman in her mid twenties. I’ve met women and girls who dismiss trauma in the way she has. Their flat,unemotional presentation usually improves when they’re safe and supported.

OldFrill

JenniferEccles

As GSM has said, the then Home Secretary’s comment “if you knew what I know” is more than enough to indicate just what a threat this woman is to our country.

Cases like this make me so cross.
Her family were given permission to settle here and this is how they repay us.
We’ve seen it time and time again with acts of terrorism.

It remains we do not know what the then Home Secretary knew and we are unlikely to ever know if he actually knew anything or was bluffing (downright lying). Leaks to the tabloids were made at the time which were later discredited.
All this gossip about state secrets and covert information isn't even worthy of the worst tabloids.

He knew enough to take the step of revoking her British citizenship, and the grounds for doing so were heard in camera by the court, which confirmed that he did not act unlawfully,

Primrose53

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

People who have experienced trauma often present like this, emotionally shut down. It's how people cope. I've seen her interviewed and there's a complete blankness about her. Just try to imagine what she has gone through, it may be her own fault but it doesn't make her experiences any less real. Giving birth without the support of her family and seeing all three children die, seeing the most dreadful violence, living in fear for her life whilst knowing that escape is pretty impossible. All of this between the ages of 15 and 19. I could go on but is it surprising that she's found her way of coping by becoming "emotionless"

JenniferEccles

As GSM has said, the then Home Secretary’s comment “if you knew what I know” is more than enough to indicate just what a threat this woman is to our country.

Cases like this make me so cross.
Her family were given permission to settle here and this is how they repay us.
We’ve seen it time and time again with acts of terrorism.

It remains we do not know what the then Home Secretary knew and we are unlikely to ever know if he actually knew anything or was bluffing (downright lying). Leaks to the tabloids were made at the time which were later discredited.
All this gossip about state secrets and covert information isn't even worthy of the worst tabloids.

I guess so. Asylum seekers get legal aid and they’re not British citizens. I wasn’t a criminal or human rights lawyer, thankfully.

Primrose53

Germanshepherdsmum

How can our country pay for Legal Aid for someone who isn’t a British citizen?

Can you shed any light on this GSM? Is it because she would come under the human rights umbrella even though she's not in the country?

Glorianny

If she was returned to the UK and still presented a threat she could surely be held under the Terrorism Investigation and Prevention Act in a place of safety until such time as the secretary of State recognised she presented no threat.

I suggest you read the Act. It doesn’t enable indefinite imprisonment without trial.

Jackiest

Syria does not want her and she is not Syrian. If Was Syria I would, on a calm day take her near to Britain and then put her in a rubber dingy with enough fuel to reach the coast. Then ring up the coast guard and tell them she was landing here and she was our problem.

We would then be forced to accept responsibility for her and I hope treat her as a civilised country should.

And how would you propose Syria could do that along with all the other nearly 37,000 in the detention camps from countries around the world?
🤔

Syria does not want her and she is not Syrian. If Was Syria I would, on a calm day take her near to Britain and then put her in a rubber dingy with enough fuel to reach the coast. Then ring up the coast guard and tell them she was landing here and she was our problem.

We would then be forced to accept responsibility for her and I hope treat her as a civilised country should.

The journalist who visited and spent time with her in the camps was on tv tonight. He knows her better than anybody else. He says she showed him a photo of her firstborn child and he said he was very sorry he died. She said “don’t worry, I’m over it now.” He said she was emotionless.

Galaxy

But those who commit the most horrific crimes are still British citizens. This isnt for me about how I feel about her or what she did or even whether I think she was groomed. It's about our responsibility and in a way our Western values. We have to be better and stand by the values that are part of us. I think that's really important at the moment.

Absolutely this Galaxy

Germanshepherdsmum

Indeed. Everyone who expresses sympathy for her and believes that she should return has absolutely no idea of what the Home Secretary knew when revoking her British citizenship. I have no doubt that if they knew what he knew their sympathy would evaporate.

I agree, there must be lots of things we don’t know about in her case.

Iam64

GSM will probably help here. Could jihadi John, like SB be arrested and charged with joining a prescribed organisation

Hardly, he was killed in Syria around 8 years ago!

I am afraid I have little confidence in the current judgement of what presents a threat but that doesnt mean we can absolve ourselves of our responsibility.

If she was returned to the UK and still presented a threat she could surely be held under the Terrorism Investigation and Prevention Act in a place of safety until such time as the secretary of State recognised she presented no threat.

I predict the ECHR will rule in her favour.

Germanshepherdsmum

How can our country pay for Legal Aid for someone who isn’t a British citizen?

But those who commit the most horrific crimes are still British citizens. This isnt for me about how I feel about her or what she did or even whether I think she was groomed. It's about our responsibility and in a way our Western values. We have to be better and stand by the values that are part of us. I think that's really important at the moment.

I’m on the fence here GSM, rare place for me. I can see the issues ariund her being stateless. I’m also prepared to accept the HS knows more than I do