Bring Shamima Begum Home!

Casdon

I think the question is whether stripping people of their citizenship is legitimate Callistemon, and why is the UK second only to Bahrain in the world for stripping the most people of their citizenship?
There doesn’t seem to be a strategy at international level for what to do with people once this has happened, or what happens to the unfortunate children caught up in the aftermath of it happening to their parents.

It has just been agreed that it was legal by three judges.

Are we to believe the British justice system is not in fact just?

Callistemon21

Casdon

I think the question is whether stripping people of their citizenship is legitimate Callistemon, and why is the UK second only to Bahrain in the world for stripping the most people of their citizenship?
There doesn’t seem to be a strategy at international level for what to do with people once this has happened, or what happens to the unfortunate children caught up in the aftermath of it happening to their parents.

It has just been agreed that it was legal by three judges.

Are we to believe the British justice system is not in fact just?

We have to have faith that the evidence put before the judges had been verified by the U.K. secret services.

It still sits uneasy with me that we deport foreign criminals but have avoided having back one of our own (yes I know that technically SB is no longer a U.K. citizen)

Parsnip57, the venom here shocks me too.

Sorry, I probably didn’t explain what I meant very well. The legal system is operating within the law, and their interpretation was obviously correct, I wouldn’t dispute that. My question is about whether it is morally right to have a law which allows citizens to be stripped of their citizenship, or whether all countries have a responsibility to mete out appropriate punishment to their citizens themselves, whatever they have done. I don’t know what the answer is, it just feels intrinsically wrong to me that people are effectively abandoned

That’s exactly how I feel Casdon

Yes and it's not as if there arent numerous examples of 'bad' laws throughout history.

We also have rather examples of people being convicted even when they have had a trial and in the case of SB the only evidence that has been presented is the secret service says she's a danger to the UK and that was sufficient to remove her nationality. There are a number of things that worry me but her journey into Syria was effected by a man working on behalf of the Canadian Secret Service, our govt has never denied this. Also, as soon as she entered Syria she was completely under the control of ISIS and lost any autonomy that she might have had. In that situation, even experienced captured soldiers have said on camera exactly what they have been told to say by ISIS. It would take an extremely courageous and probably very foolish person to refuse as you would pay with your life. I think it's also important to recognise that even in the refugee camp she will be subject to retaliation if she steps out of line. I don't think anyone knows if she did things under duress or because she is an evil person but surely she should at least have a proper chance to plead her case in the UK rather than from a refugee camp in Syria?

"innocent" people !

I totally agree with Germanshepherdsmum. She isn’t a child anymore and knew exactly what she was doing both in going and what she observed while she was there. There is a lot we don’t know because of delicate information security so leave it to the experts. She would be a security risk we cannot allow.

For foxie -- she was moved to a safer camp already. Her own father said she has never apologised. The ISIL intermediary who helped her get to Turkey, then Syria, with her friends, was NOT forcing her at gunpoint through train stations and airports, the films have been shown of them passing through.

I repeat, if YOU want her back, YOU have her at YOUR house. If your neck feels a bit itchy in the night, do get to a keyboard and let us know before it's too late . . . . .

Casdon

Sorry, I probably didn’t explain what I meant very well. The legal system is operating within the law, and their interpretation was obviously correct, I wouldn’t dispute that. My question is about whether it is morally right to have a law which allows citizens to be stripped of their citizenship, or whether all countries have a responsibility to mete out appropriate punishment to their citizens themselves, whatever they have done. I don’t know what the answer is, it just feels intrinsically wrong to me that people are effectively abandoned

Yes, I see.

I did ask that question ages ago (I think it was this thread).

Presumably by that logic if the acid attacker hadnt throw himself in the river, he should have stayed in this country, after all why should his country of origin take him back.

Really OldFrill? Just HOW incorrect was my post? Oh, and the "rant" word is invariably used right across F'book by folk who have no factual, logical answers, but just want to babble some sort of reply.

She was widely reported as having had 3 husbands after her first one - the one she 'married' after that whirlwind 'courtship' just after she'd arrived - was reported to have been oh-so-sadly killed.

Begum was interviewed by BBC correspondent Quentin Sommerville on 18th February 2019. During the interview, Begum asked for the UK's forgiveness and claimed that she still supported "some British values". [NOTE THAT - "some"].

She said she had been partly inspired to join IS by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also of "the good life" under the group. When asked about the Manchester Arena bombing, she said she was shocked and didn't "know about the kids", then said it was wrong to kill innocent people, but that IS considered it justified as retaliation for the coalition bombing of IS-held areas.

[OK OldFrill- are you getting muddled up with our 'Good Life', the one with Briers, Scales, Keith and Eddington? Begum's 'Good Life' was taking part in executions, not growing lettuces and cabbages in the back garden!]

When questioned about rape, enslavement and murder of Yazidi women, she claimed, "Shia do the same in Iraq"

[SO - OldFrill -- PLEASE DO ENLIGHTEN me about what a safe bet she'd be if returned here, as she finds videos of beheadings "inspiring" and would be - HER WORDS - a threat to all Shia Muslims here?? ]

Oh, AND :- In February 2019, her father Ahmed Ali said, "If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her, but she does not accept her wrong.". [OK OldFrill, that's HER OWN father - clear enough?? Where am I "incorrect" so far].

I repeat, for ALL THOSE trying trying to play the "innocent, rebellious teenager" card, most rebels of my era used to express that with a crafty ciggie somewhere in the school, or on the way to/from it, perhaps also some weird drawings on exercise books and/or the punk look.

In more recent times, we've had teens trashing bus shelters, idolising 'Young Ones' on TV, guzzling some underage booze, and more recently still puffing away on vapes, and getting addicted to phone games, TikTok and the like.

RARELY wanting to travel 2,000 miles and start hacking off a few innocent heads?! Not quite the same thing?

YOU sign up to having her at YOUR house, if you're that confident she's quite OK here. Of course, she could I suppose come back and be plonked in Broadmoor, or Rampton? If she was as reported part of a team sewing suicide vests, doubtless they could put her skills to good use?

Or perhaps some ultra poor 3rd world country could volunteer to take her, if she'd do good works for the population as some recompense for her sins? Though any with some Shia Muslims might have some understandable concerns?

As the crime was committed on British soil by a British citizen I don’t think there was ever a question of deporting the acid attacker Galaxy, he would have been tried and served his prison sentence in the UK, but I may be wrong on that? If for example, a British national left the UK and took on Australian citizenship then murdered somebody, would we expect that person to be deported back to the UK? There are definitely questions regarding whether the acid attacker should ever have been accepted as a British citizen, but that’s a different issue down to our immigration processes.

I’m not aware that he had British citizenship Casdon. He was granted asylum but would have had to apply separately for citizenship. After serving a very long sentence for what he did he could have been deported, but unfortunately we don’t currently deport anyone to Afghanistan, where he is thought to have come from.

Thanks Germanshepherdsmum, I didn’t realise that. I wonder how many people never seek the citizenship of the country they live in, and if they realise the potential implications of not doing so, I’d guess it’s probably millions.

My friend only found out she should have applied for citizenship (or someone should have done it for her, as she was fostered, and came from Nigeria, originally) when she was planning her wedding.

Dr Watson

I cannot see anywhere that she was married multiple times, even if she was, do you not think she would have been forced to? The Netherlands certainly do not consider her marriage at 15 to a Dutch national as legal.

She and her two school friends were brainwashed by an older girl from their school, with a very similar name, who I understand went out first.

I think the whole affair is shocking and sad and I do think we should remember how impressionable girls and boys of 15 are, and how powerful the internet can be when it comes to grooming. It’s no different to those people who are groomed into cults and sects.

I’m not suggesting what she did was in any way right, nor that she was wholly innocent, I just don’t think it’s as black and white as 15 year olds knowing the difference between right and wrong.

DrWatson

Really OldFrill? Just HOW incorrect was my post? Oh, and the "rant" word is invariably used right across F'book by folk who have no factual, logical answers, but just want to babble some sort of reply.

She was widely reported as having had 3 husbands after her first one - the one she 'married' after that whirlwind 'courtship' just after she'd arrived - was reported to have been oh-so-sadly killed.

Begum was interviewed by BBC correspondent Quentin Sommerville on 18th February 2019. During the interview, Begum asked for the UK's forgiveness and claimed that she still supported "some British values". [NOTE THAT - "some"].

She said she had been partly inspired to join IS by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also of "the good life" under the group. When asked about the Manchester Arena bombing, she said she was shocked and didn't "know about the kids", then said it was wrong to kill innocent people, but that IS considered it justified as retaliation for the coalition bombing of IS-held areas.

[OK OldFrill- are you getting muddled up with our 'Good Life', the one with Briers, Scales, Keith and Eddington? Begum's 'Good Life' was taking part in executions, not growing lettuces and cabbages in the back garden!]

When questioned about rape, enslavement and murder of Yazidi women, she claimed, "Shia do the same in Iraq"

[SO - OldFrill -- PLEASE DO ENLIGHTEN me about what a safe bet she'd be if returned here, as she finds videos of beheadings "inspiring" and would be - HER WORDS - a threat to all Shia Muslims here?? ]

Oh, AND :- In February 2019, her father Ahmed Ali said, "If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her, but she does not accept her wrong.". [OK OldFrill, that's HER OWN father - clear enough?? Where am I "incorrect" so far].

I repeat, for ALL THOSE trying trying to play the "innocent, rebellious teenager" card, most rebels of my era used to express that with a crafty ciggie somewhere in the school, or on the way to/from it, perhaps also some weird drawings on exercise books and/or the punk look.

In more recent times, we've had teens trashing bus shelters, idolising 'Young Ones' on TV, guzzling some underage booze, and more recently still puffing away on vapes, and getting addicted to phone games, TikTok and the like.

RARELY wanting to travel 2,000 miles and start hacking off a few innocent heads?! Not quite the same thing?

YOU sign up to having her at YOUR house, if you're that confident she's quite OK here. Of course, she could I suppose come back and be plonked in Broadmoor, or Rampton? If she was as reported part of a team sewing suicide vests, doubtless they could put her skills to good use?

Or perhaps some ultra poor 3rd world country could volunteer to take her, if she'd do good works for the population as some recompense for her sins? Though any with some Shia Muslims might have some understandable concerns?

I wonder if you have her confused, in part at least, with others. As much of your account is unverifiable in regard to Begum
Btw, re confusion - this is not Facebook thus l don't see the relevance.
She was married once, that husband is still alive and his account of the marriage is well documented.
There is no proof she beheaded anyone.
Around 400 terrorists returned to the UK, the two the UK were able to strip of their citizenship have been foisted on other countries, such hypocrisy.
She could come and live with me, provided she doesn't smoke, OH doesn't want to be tempted to start again 😄

Begum was only married once but I agree with everything else DrWatson has said. I don’t believe she was brainwashed. She was ‘inspired’ by the beheadings she saw online and wanted to go and join in. She was an intelligent girl and would have known that the things which ‘inspired’ her were very wrong - and evidently she was fine with what was happening when she arrived at her destination. Severed heads in bins? Fine. Making suicide vests? No problem.

I am not particularly knowledgeable, however I believe Choudery, a known racist and fundamentalist has spent 2.5 years of his prison sentence and has since been released.

Shamima has spent years as a prisoner in a Syrian camp. She lost her 3rd baby.

Shamima left England as a teenager, a bright 15 year old. I have no doubt that she and the few other girls who left with her were groomed on line. This grooming was professional. Adults grooming children

She is now a dangerous woman. The security services know that and it’s why her British citizenship was revoked. You have no proof of grooming, not that it would make any difference. She was an intelligent girl and knew what she was doing. Losing her babies is sad but irrelevant.

I agree she seems to have been an academically intelligent girl. Emotional and social intelligence - maybe less so. I’m inclined to believe she was groomed on the internet and by her slightly older friend. She was looking for excitement like lots of other girls. I wonder how much of her attraction to the caliphate reflects an emerging dangerous personality and how much a rebellion as a first generation immigrant who rather despised her parents

No, leave her rot, she had no sympathy for the victims of the Manchester arena bombing

Opal

OP, I wonder if you would feel the same if ISIS had executed one of your loved ones?
She should stay where she is - incidentally, she has no surviving children.

I agree with you. She was well aware of what she was doing when she scooted off with her chums leave her there.