Budget 2024

I've watched it, thanks. I could have a rant along with that chap on the film.

Re the AI. I agree with you. It's already being used in MRI diagnostics I believe but as for the rest, five years isn't enough. It might be enought to develop new systems, to design and write the code but testing, implementation and seamless integration are much much harder.

DiamondLily

Susie42

The pension increase next month will probably drag me and thousands of others into paying tax on their state pension. I’m just glad that interest rates on my savings have increased but I feel sorry and angry for those who only have their state pension and are not eligible for pension credits.

I’m already over the threshold on my state pension because of previously paid SERPS, so I get clobbered for tax on my private pensions. Thankfully, the interest rates on my savings prop it all up.

You did get tax relief on your private pension premiums when paid.

Absolutely Dinahmo

TinSoldier

*winterwhite*: Question (I've got a bit behind): is the use of AI in hospitals and care homes really ready to roll out now, without investment that will wipe out the economies? Imposing it on the care sector without robust testing would just make bad worse. When are the savings predicted for?

This is what Hunt said:

We will slash the 13 million hours lost by doctors and nurses every year to outdated IT systems.

We will use AI to cut down and potentially cut in half form filling by doctors.

We will digitise operating theatre processes allowing the same number of consultants to do an extra 200,000 operations a year.

We will fund improvements to help doctors read MRI and CT scans more accurately and quickly, speeding up results for 130,000 patients every year and saving thousands of lives –something I know would have delighted my brother Charlie who I recently lost to cancer.

We will improve the NHS app so that it can be used to confirm and modify all appointments, reducing up to half a million missed appointments annually and improving patient choice.

We will set up a new NHS staff app to make it easier to roster electronically and end the use of expensive off-framework agencies.

And as a result of this funding, all hospitals will use electronic patient records, making the NHS the largest digitally integrated healthcare system in the world.

Today’s announcement doubles the amount the NHS is investing on digital transformation over three years.

The BBC is reporting that the Treasury is hoping that the proposed technological reforms will deliver as much as £1.8bn worth of benefits to public sector productivity by 2029.

Oh for goodness sakes, before I retired 12 years ago we were using electronic rostering, bloody awful it was too, especially if you needed to change with someone. We were also into electronic notes, not all done, but on the way.
The man is a fool, no experience of anything.

Thank you, Tin Soldier. I’m very sorry to hear about your brother Charlie.

Pie in the sky sounds right for much of this because the necessary initial spend will prob not happen. The NHS is now so vast and cumbersome that it’s imposs for it to move easily and take advantage of innovations. This has been the result of successive secs of state wanting to make their mark.

GrannyGravy13

I do find it odd that on another thread there was an overwhelming number of posters advocating for higher taxes, and now we have complaints about posters moving into the tax bracket…

I think actually the tax point was some of us said we’d rather have no tax cuts or pay slightly more for improved public services.

Inthink the reference was to Hunt's brother Charlie, *winterwhite'.

I, too, am very dubious about the ability of the NHS to develop and implement AI in a short period of time.

This doesn't seem to me to be budget for serious growth. The few £billions which will possibly be fed into the economy by the tax cuts will a) probably be used to pay down debt, rather than consume more and b) is unlikely to put enough spending into the economy to boost businesses or to attract private investment.

A big programme of state investment would be much more effective. Instead we have the ludicrous proposal that public services, already cut to the bone, are going to be able to make 'efficiency' savings.

And Labour too terrified of the RW media to commit to a bold programme of state investment. The future looks dim..

Loved this! Caption.

“Rishi Sunak strides past Larry on the way to listen to the budget”

Whitewavemark2

Loved this! Caption.

“Rishi Sunak strides past Larry on the way to listen to the budget”

😂😂😂😂😂😂

I loved David Mellors face and quote.
He was asked by the presenter if the 2p will make a difference in the coming election.
In his dead pan face he just sad no!!! Then added ^they ( the tories) have to understand the games up, the same as it was in 97.

winterwhite

Thank you, Tin Soldier. I’m very sorry to hear about your brother Charlie.

Pie in the sky sounds right for much of this because the necessary initial spend will prob not happen. The NHS is now so vast and cumbersome that it’s imposs for it to move easily and take advantage of innovations. This has been the result of successive secs of state wanting to make their mark.

How true. I’m fortunate in that I havnt been to hospital many times.
But last year I had 2 ECGs at my surgery. Because of what they saw I was sent straight to the hospital.
In the side room I was all wired up again I asked the Dr what she was doing. She replied, an ECG. I told her I’d had 2 done earlier at my surgery and why can’t you look at those results.
Her answer, and it was obvious that she was just as frustrated as I was, was we haven’t got the technology to do that 🤦🏼‍♀️

Whitewavemark2

NHS funding - which comes high on the list of the majority of voter

Nothing extra - zero -

The IFS have warned Hunt of the disastrous result if he fails to provide the necessary funding.

I worked for the NHS for the last 17 years of my working life and the waste is appalling. If a private business was run the way the NHS is it would have gone bankrupt long ago. What it needs is an independent and thorough assessment from top to bottom. £m's are wasted in the current system. Constantly throwing money at it is useless and unsustainable.

‘Reducing waste’ in the NHS would not resolve the chronic underfunding.

Sarnia

Whitewavemark2

NHS funding - which comes high on the list of the majority of voter

Nothing extra - zero -

The IFS have warned Hunt of the disastrous result if he fails to provide the necessary funding.

I worked for the NHS for the last 17 years of my working life and the waste is appalling. If a private business was run the way the NHS is it would have gone bankrupt long ago. What it needs is an independent and thorough assessment from top to bottom. £m's are wasted in the current system. Constantly throwing money at it is useless and unsustainable.

What kind of things would you suggest?

Of course, nobody should be throwing money away, but there's also a saying about throwing babies out with the bathwater.

Casdon

‘Reducing waste’ in the NHS would not resolve the chronic underfunding.

Nor supply the necessary staff! This week alone my best friend and I have both had next week pain clinic appointments cancelled and my husband his polyps procedure changed, all due to staff shortages!

In hospital a huge amount of time is spent chasing up results, trying to find beds, trying to discharge patients with suitable care packages. etc I had a blood test at my GPs on Tuesday morning, I looked on the NHS app this morning and my results are already there. No need for the surgery to contact me as they are fine. Good IT systems can save doctor time but they are not an instant fix as they take time to embed and be used effectively. After my recent hospital stay it took 8 hours to get my discharge notes and medication, a fellow patient (with whom I am still in contact) was ready to be discharged at lunchtime Tuesday and was still waiting for transport at 17.30 Wednesday.

I thought this was an interesting report which is well worth reading worth reading. It was published last year.

From the Executive Summary (which is far too long to reproduce in full):

The NHS is in crisis. Elective waiting lists are at their highest ever levels. Every month record numbers of people – reaching the hundreds of thousands – wait more than four hours to be seen in A&E. People are struggling to get GP appointments; those who do and seek a referral are more likely than ever to see it rejected. NHS performance has become a major political problem for the government, with voters considering it the most important issue facing the country after the cost of living.1 Satisfaction with the NHS is at an all-time low. At the heart of this crisis is a productivity puzzle.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/nhs-productivity-puzzle_0.pdf

Just said on Sky News that Hunt had said his long term aim is to eliminate National Insurance altogether. By that does he mean he wants everyone (who can afford it) to have private medical insurance?

MayBee70

Just said on Sky News that Hunt had said his long term aim is to eliminate National Insurance altogether. By that does he mean he wants everyone (who can afford it) to have private medical insurance?

I doubt very much whether Hunt will be Chancellor for long enough to achieve his long-term aim.

There has been talk for a long time about amalgamating income tax and National Insurance. Both end up in the same place anyway. It doesn't necessarily mean that people would have to have private medical insurance (although it doesn't mean that people won't anyway if the NHS is underfunded).

He said that during his budget speech, saying that it was simply another tax on income and he didn’t agree with this ‘double taxation’. He also made the point that it’s an additional tax on employers. No, it does not mean that he wants those who can afford it to have private healthcare. NI just goes into the pot along with other taxes, it doesn’t fund the NHS or pensions. Obviously how equivalent tax revenue would be raised would have to be considered before any plans to scrap NI altogether were put in place.

MaizieD

I thought this was an interesting report which is well worth reading worth reading. It was published last year.

From the Executive Summary (which is far too long to reproduce in full):

The NHS is in crisis. Elective waiting lists are at their highest ever levels. Every month record numbers of people – reaching the hundreds of thousands – wait more than four hours to be seen in A&E. People are struggling to get GP appointments; those who do and seek a referral are more likely than ever to see it rejected. NHS performance has become a major political problem for the government, with voters considering it the most important issue facing the country after the cost of living.1 Satisfaction with the NHS is at an all-time low. At the heart of this crisis is a productivity puzzle.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/nhs-productivity-puzzle_0.pdf

The conclusion to that report is worth reading:

"This report set out to understand why activity in hospitals has not risen in line with recent funding and staffing increases. It offers three answers.

First, and most directly, hospitals are running at above full capacity. They do not have enough beds, and too many of the ones they do have are full of people who should not be there. A lack of capital investment, notably preventing a boost in low diagnostic equipment stocks, is slowing the
response to this problem.

Second, despite notable increases in the headline number of staff the NHS is losing too many experienced employees, and they are being replaced with more junior people who are naturally less experienced and who need more support. Staff burnout, low morale and pay concerns are principle reasons for this.

Third, the NHS is badly undermanaged – and system-level policy changes over the past decade have muddied incentives and placed additional constraints on those running trusts, making their job harder.

Clearly the three are connected."

growstuff

Sarnia

Whitewavemark2

NHS funding - which comes high on the list of the majority of voter

Nothing extra - zero -

The IFS have warned Hunt of the disastrous result if he fails to provide the necessary funding.

I worked for the NHS for the last 17 years of my working life and the waste is appalling. If a private business was run the way the NHS is it would have gone bankrupt long ago. What it needs is an independent and thorough assessment from top to bottom. £m's are wasted in the current system. Constantly throwing money at it is useless and unsustainable.

What kind of things would you suggest?

Of course, nobody should be throwing money away, but there's also a saying about throwing babies out with the bathwater.

The NHS is top heavy with non-medical staff on higher salaries than most doctors and nurses. Appointments of Diversity managers in the region of £70k a year needs to stop. Today's Matrons would be better employed with efficiently managing their wards, as they used to do, instead of sitting in endless meetings that produce very little. I used to do all the ordering for a busy Maternity Department. Suppliers on NHS contracts charge top prices because it is the NHS. The overspend on that is enormous. Huge savings could be made by tackling these issues without just throwing the NHS more money.

I’ve put this on the election thread but thought that it could well go on here as it was taken after the budget.

Voting intention

LAB: 46% (+1)
CON: 18% (-2)
RFM: 13% (+1)

Westminster voting intention.

YouGov is showing Labour with a 27 point lead

Sarnia

growstuff

Sarnia

Whitewavemark2

NHS funding - which comes high on the list of the majority of voter

Nothing extra - zero -

The IFS have warned Hunt of the disastrous result if he fails to provide the necessary funding.

I worked for the NHS for the last 17 years of my working life and the waste is appalling. If a private business was run the way the NHS is it would have gone bankrupt long ago. What it needs is an independent and thorough assessment from top to bottom. £m's are wasted in the current system. Constantly throwing money at it is useless and unsustainable.

What kind of things would you suggest?

Of course, nobody should be throwing money away, but there's also a saying about throwing babies out with the bathwater.

The NHS is top heavy with non-medical staff on higher salaries than most doctors and nurses. Appointments of Diversity managers in the region of £70k a year needs to stop. Today's Matrons would be better employed with efficiently managing their wards, as they used to do, instead of sitting in endless meetings that produce very little. I used to do all the ordering for a busy Maternity Department. Suppliers on NHS contracts charge top prices because it is the NHS. The overspend on that is enormous. Huge savings could be made by tackling these issues without just throwing the NHS more money.

If the NHS got rid of all staff in non direct clinical support roles it would make little difference to the funding shortfall, but leave big gaps in the NHS ability to deliver. No HR, Payroll, Logistics, Works and Maintenance for example. Non clinical staff on high salaries (who are usually former clinicians who have gone into managerial roles) are costing a very small percent of NHS budgets I would imagine, certainly not enough to offset budget cuts.
I do agree there are too many meetings, but matrons never managed wards in the past, the role was equivalent to the current senior nurse role. Unfortunately most meetings senior nurses attend are about meeting statutory guidance, and addressing shortfalls in budgets - bed management being the most time sucking of all. The amount of time spent on managing patient flow because of inadequate resources both in the NHS and in social care provision is completely disproportionate - but there is no solution in the current environment.
I agree with you regarding purchasing. The NHS is bound by government contractual arrangements, individual services are not allowed to purchase off contract. This is intended to ensure the best value, but it doesn’t always work well. There has been a lot of national work around this, particularly with pharmacy contracts.

Abolishing NI is not straightforward. The loss in tax income would have to be compensated by increasing other taxes, mainly income tax. That raises the question as to how the tax burden should be distributed. It's easy to apply NI because it simply means identifying those in work. Distinguishing between different groups subject to income tax is more difficult. A blanket increase would mean pensioners paying significantly more tax whereas they are NI-exempt.